00:09 Frank: Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novelette, The Bear, by William Faulkner. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Porcile and Phil Setnik. Katie, Phil, welcome. Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Now, before we get started, let me give a quick introduction to our story. The Bear is a work of short fiction, very short fiction, by William Faulkner. Its genesis is typical of Faulkner's writing and publishing career. He always used his material to the greatest degree. First, it was a short story titled Lion, and appeared in 1934. It was enlarged in 1941 and 1942 as The Bear, and he then included it in Go Down Moses, a collection of related short stories which is sometimes considered a novel, and that was published later that year. The Bear is the longest story in the collection. As historical fiction set in an imagined Mississippi county, The Bear traces a young man's development in the context of an annual hunting trip. The later collected stories will see that young man, Isaac McCaslin, grow and develop as he attempts to reckon with his family's fraught history of environmental, racial, and other abuses. So readers, our story, The Bear, is the centerpiece of Go Down Moses, just as Isaac McCaslin is the book's central character. But Katie, before we get into this work, what did you think about the style of the story? For lack of a better term, I thought of it as impressionistic. Impressions, images that we get from a very young boy.

02:01 Katie: Yeah, I think impressionistic is a good word for it. There are lots of descriptions and time passing somewhat fast as we just kind of glance over it. So we almost just pass right through without getting the full picture. but through the digressions and previous events are related. At 10, Isaac had gone on his first hunt with the men. At 11, he had seen the bear for the first time. At 13, he killed his first deer and underwent the traditional initiation when Sam marked his face with the blood.

02:33 Frank: Phil, did you have any thoughts about the style or the way this story was written?

02:37 Phil: It's very interesting to see how he does develop in a lot of ways throughout the story. But we have to remember that he's still only going from the age of 10 to the age of 14. So even though he has developed in kind of a psychological realism in the book, the impressions that he gives are those of a young boy still who has been forced into this mold of becoming a woodsman. It demonstrates to the readers not only what Isaac does, but why he does so to the extent that he can formulate in his own mind.

03:05 Frank: With those brief remarks, let's talk about our story. Tell me a little bit about the young Isaac we meet in The Bear.

03:10 Katie: In the fall of 1877, the recently 10-year-old Isaac McCaslin finally gets to go hunting with the men. He joins his father, uncles, and cousins on the annual hunting trip hosted by his father's friend, Major Despain, in a wooded area known as the Big Bottom.

03:28 Phil: Until he was 10, each November he would watch the wagons containing the dogs and the bedding and the guns and the food, and his father and uncles and cousins depart on the road to town, to Jefferson.

03:39 Katie: For Isaac, as a boy of 7, 8, and 9, they were not going into Big Bottom to hunt a bear or deer, but to keep a yearly rendezvous with the bear, which they did not even intend to kill.

03:51 Frank: We'll get to the bear, which they did not even intend to kill soon, but there are others on these yearly trips, others that are not part of the family.

03:59 Phil: That's correct. You have Sam Fathers, Major Despain, General Compson, and Boone Hagenbeck. And who is Sam Fathers? He's the son of Ike Motube, a Choctaw chief and a slave girl. Ike Motube sold Sam and his mother into slavery when Sam was very young. Now an elderly but expert woodsman and hunter, Sam teaches Isaac the ways of the forest.

04:19 Katie: From Sam, Isaac learns to navigate and hunt in the wilderness. Sam also demonstrates a reverence for nature.

04:26 Phil: Though the central action of the bearer takes place in the late 1800s, through Sam, Faulkner addresses issues that would have been relevant at the time of the story's publication in 1942. For Faulkner, the question of environmental conservation in the face of ever-expanding industry was growing more urgent with each passing year.

04:45 Frank: But Sam doesn't only teach young Isaac how to hunt. He teaches him about what to hunt.

04:50 Phil: Isaac learns about Old Ben, the eponymous bear of our story. Old Ben is a ferocious, gigantic beast, a powerful, seemingly immortal bear with a maimed foot, known for terrorizing local farmers and hunters. But mostly, he's learning how to track and hunt Old Ben. He's known about the bear as long as he has known about the hunt.

05:09 Katie: As the story states, quote, He seemed to see it entire with a child's complete divination before he ever laid eyes on either. The doomed wilderness whose edges were being constantly and punily gnawed at by men with axes and plows, who feared it because it was wilderness. Men myriad and nameless, even to one another in the land where the old bear had earned a name, through which ran not even a mortal animal but an anachronism, indomitable and invincible. out of an old dead time, a phantom, epitome and apotheosis of the old wildlife at which the puny humans swarmed and hacked in a fury of abhorrence and fear, like pygmies about the ankles of a drowsing elephant, the old bear solitary, indomitable, and alone, widowered, childless, and absolved of mortality, old Priam, raft of his old wife and having outlived all his sons.

06:36 Frank: Katie, I agree with what you said about those paragraphs. It shows Faulkner's ability to write some great lines using some fantastic wording. I really appreciate you reading that quote for us. Now, Sam Fathers serves as a father figure to him as Isaac discovers the beauties and dangers of the forest. Isaac's quest to find old Ben requires him to gradually abandon the trappings of civilization, such as his gun and compass, which symbolizes and parallels his abandonment of his ideological baggage as well.

07:07 Katie: Sam explains that they will only be able to kill old Ben once they find the right dog to corner and fight him.

07:14 Frank: And Phil, what about some of the other characters you mentioned?

07:17 Phil: We have Major Despain, who is the proprietor of the old Sutpen plantation, and he also owns the hunting camp at Big Bottom.

07:24 Katie: There's old General Compson, the old Civil War general, and Jefferson, aristocrat, who goes on the hunting expedition. Also, the ancestor of important characters in other Faulkner novels, particularly Absalom Absalom and The Sound and the Fury.

07:40 Phil: Also, Boone Hagenbeck, the ugly, alcoholic hunter who is fiercely loyal to Major Despain. In the later stories, it is Boone and his dog, Lion, that eventually kill Old Ben.

07:51 Frank: All right, readers, with that start, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll learn more from Isaac about his first hunting trip and more about Old Ben. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about the novelette, The Bear, by William Faulkner. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Porcile and Philip Setnik. So as our story continues, Isaac tells us, or at least gives us images of that first trip. He's been dreaming of this day, this trip, and the bear since he can remember.

08:37 Katie: As is customary, the party devotes one day of their trip to hunting Old Ben. After the hunters spread out and take their places, Old Ben passes near Isaac. Isaac senses Old Ben watching him, but doesn't see the bear. At that moment, Isaac realizes he will never shoot Old Ben.

08:56 Phil: Isaac tells us he doesn't see the bear, but he, quote, hears the dogs. When the dogs sense the bear is near, they bark and bay.

09:02 Katie: Isaac describes it as a, quote, murmur, sourceless, echoing through the wet woods, swelling presently into separate voices, which he could recognize and call by name.

09:13 Phil: Old Ben, the legendary bear, is a symbol of the power and inscrutability of nature. He is nearly immortal, nearly invulnerable, capable of overpowering virtually anything, and capable of wreaking havoc on human settlements and establishments.

09:26 Katie: Once Isaac realizes he would probably never choose to shoot old Ben, he concentrates on improving his tracking skills so he can continue to get occasional glimpses of the bear.

09:37 Frank: These scenes where Isaac realizes he's never going to actually take a shot at this bear are one of Faulkner's most intense, focused, and symbolic explorations of the relationship between man and nature and how it's constantly changing and evolving.

09:52 Katie: The following June, Isaac returns to Major Despain's camp. While Major Despain and General Compson celebrate birthdays and their friends relax, Isaac looks for Old Ben, though the others think he is hunting squirrels. Sam figures out what Isaac is doing and tells him Old Ben won't let Isaac see him as long as he carries a gun.

10:12 Phil: The next day, Isaac leaves behind his gun and travels farther into the wilderness than ever before, realizing that he is, quote, still tainted. He then abandons his watch and compass. Now lost in the woods, Isaac finds old Ben's tracks and momentarily glimpses the bear, who looks back at him, then vanishes. Over time, Isaac sees old Ben several times.

10:33 Frank: And actually, Isaac describes one of those sightings. I'm going to quote from the book. Then he saw the bear. It did not emerge or appear. It was just there, immobile, solid, fixed in the hot dappling of the green and windless noon. Not as big as he had dreamed it, but as big as he had expected it. Bigger, dimensionless, against the dappled obscurity looking at him, where he sat quietly on the log and looked back at it. Then it moved. It made no sound. It did not hurry. It crossed the glade, walking for an instant into the full glare of the sun. When it reached the other side, it stopped again and looked back at him across one shoulder while his quiet breathing inhaled and exhaled three times. Then it was gone. It faded, sank back into the wilderness as he had watched a fish, a huge old bass, sink and vanish into the dark depths of the good pool without any movement of its fins. Again, just that great, the great writing of Faulkner.

11:33 Katie: It's a great example.

11:33 Frank: Very, very evocative. All right. Well, let's take another quick break here. And when we come back, we'll continue our conversation. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about The Bear by William Faulkner. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Porcile and Phil Setnik. Katie, we continue to learn about Isaac as he gets a little older and he becomes a very accomplished hunter and woodsman.

12:12 Katie: By this time, Isaac is 13 and he develops into an expert woodsman and a proven hunter. He kills his first deer and undergoes the traditional initiation when Sam marks his face with the blood. By his 14th year, he was a better woodsman than most grown men. There was no territory within 30 miles of the camp that he did not know. Bayou, ridge, break, landmark tree, and path.

12:37 Phil: There's a good quote in the book.

12:56 Katie: The quote continues, he could find the crooked print now almost whenever he liked, 15 or 10 or even 5 miles, or sometimes even closer to the camp than that, but not the bear himself.

13:09 Frank: But Phil, then he sees the bear.

13:12 Phil: One day, he and Sam track and ambush Old Ben with a small, foolishly brave dog. A tiny feis, a dog with no sense of danger. Isaac even has a shot at the huge bear. But when Old Ben turns on the dog, Isaac runs forward to save the dog. He looks up at Old Ben looming over him and remembers the image from his dreams about the bear. After the bear leaves, Sam asks Isaac why he didn't shoot. Isaac asks Sam the same question.

13:37 Frank: And his father asks them both the same question. His father then reads Isaac a few lines from Ode to a Grecian Urn by John Keats. She cannot fade, though thou hast not thy bliss. Forever wilt thou love, and she be fair.

13:52 Katie: Isaac says, he's just talking about some girl. And the father responds by saying, Keats is talking about truth. He says, truth doesn't change. Truth is one thing. It covers all things which touch the heart, honor and pride and pity and justice and courage and love.

14:13 Phil: But for Isaac, it was simple, simpler than somebody talking in a book about youth and a girl. He sums it up for himself, quote, he had heard about a bear and finally got big enough to trail it. And he trailed it for four years and at last met it with a gun in his hands and he didn't shoot.

14:27 Frank: And really, readers, with those thoughts, our short novel, or novelette as I've called it, ends. It's to be continued in subsequent stories collected in Go Down Moses. All really good insights Katie, Phil. Now let's take our final break and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or another quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about The Bear by William Faulkner. Katie, Phil, before our break we ended our story, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character, or as I said, another quote that we haven't really had a chance to talk about. Katie, do you have something for us?

15:22 Katie: Well first I wanted to mention what I was reading about there at the end where the dad talks about truth and truth doesn't change and truth is honor and pride and pity and justice and courage and love. The way that he's discussing what it meant to see the bear with his father at the end was just the best part of the story to me. How the father related the experience of seeing the bear with all of the accolades that a young boy, this growing boy coming of age, should be paying attention to and learning what he has inside of himself. And even as we're in the thought process of Isaac, he comes to this same idea and he says, There is a boy who wished to learn humility and pride in order to become skillful and worthy in the woods. And he goes on and he realizes that he had to learn humility from the dog and pride from the bear. It's just beautiful.

16:20 Frank: As you finish the reading here, did you get the feeling that the father reconciles himself to the fact that his son did not take that shot? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. The father was supportive.

16:32 Katie: I think so. I think it goes back to that man versus nature and how they commune together. The father has never shot the bear either.

16:39 Frank: That's right. Remember, we mentioned it earlier on that this first day of the hunts was traditionally the day they went out to not shoot the bear.

16:48 Katie: Right, exactly.

16:49 Phil: Phil, did you have something you wanted to share with us? Just based on that point you just made, it's very interesting because at the beginning they talk about how this bear is seemingly invincible, that it has been shot many times, and others have tried to take it down. But these men have already realized that that's futility, and that the bear is greater than any one of them, and is a symbol of the nature that's around them, and is a force of nature himself. And I was going to use one of the similar quotes that you were talking about, about his struggle to reconcile all these different emotions that he's feeling and what he's supposed to be feeling. The pride versus the humility that he is growing so much as a skilled woodsman that he has trouble feeling humility and he's worried that he's gonna become too prideful and that he has to learn the humility from the dog who is about six pounds and can't get any closer to the ground to be any more humble and can only be brave. That's all that's left at the end is to be brave.

17:39 Frank: Great thoughts, great thoughts. Katie, do you have another one for us?

17:42 Katie: I do. I just really like the moment when Sam is giving Isaac, when he tells him that the reason he can't find the bear is because he's carrying the gun. But then Sam goes on to tell him to be scared. You can't help that. Don't be afraid, but you have to be scared when you're walking through the woods. I just love that dichotomy.

18:03 Frank: He really does learn a lot from both his father and from Sam fathers. I have a couple of thoughts to me, even though it's really just Isaac going from 10 to 14, I think of this as a coming of age story. We are getting to see a young boy, I mean, 10 years old, think about 10 years old going out and hunting for the first time, but he's growing up and he's learning. As we've said, he's learning from his father. He's learning from Sam fathers. He's learning from some of the other men on the hunt. He's learning from old Ben. He even learns from the dog. So I enjoyed, even though it was a short arc, I enjoyed watching Isaac grow within this short story. And then the last thing I just wanted to say to our listeners out there, reading this short story, The Bear, and knowing that there are other short stories that continue the story of Isaac and his family, I now want to go ahead and read some of those other short stories. I was not fully aware that Go Down Moses was a collection of these short stories, all related and a continuing story about Isaac and his family. And just from this bear, just from these short 40 pages, I absolutely want to continue and learn more about the family, the eventual death of the bear, and the way Isaac reconciles himself with the forces of nature.

19:18 Katie: Yeah, I would add to that only by saying and encouraging the listeners to read this story themselves. It's so short. It's 30 minutes to get through it. And then Go Down Moses is just as approachable as this one.

19:33 Frank: You talked to us about that early on, that you feel this is one of Faulkner's most approachable stories.

19:38 Katie: I do. He can be really intimidating and he can be really complex. And I think in Go Down Moses, it's broken down enough that anybody can read it and understand it and learn to love it.

19:49 Frank: All right, great. So let's end our conversation today. Phil and Katie, I want to thank both of you for coming in and having this conversation with me. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Very much. Thank you, Frank. Of course, Frank. You've been listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Katie Porcile and Phil Setnik. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Grace Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.