00:07 Frank Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee, and I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Porcile and Phil Setnick. Katie, Phil, welcome. Thank you, Frank. Thank you very much. Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, let me give a quick introduction to our novel. To Kill a Mockingbird is a novel by American author Harper Lee. It was published in 1960 and was instantly successful, winning the Pulitzer Prize a year after its release. In the United States, it's widely read in high schools and even in some middle schools. The plot and characters are loosely based on Lee's observations of her family, her neighbors, and an event that occurred near her hometown in Monroeville, Alabama in 1936, when she was 10. Despite dealing with the serious issues of rape and racial inequality, the novel is renowned for its warmth and humor. Atticus Finch, the narrator's father, has served as a moral hero for many readers and as a model of integrity for many lawyers. As a Southern Gothic novel and a Bildungsroman, a novel dealing with one person's formative years or spiritual education, the primary themes of To Kill a Mockingbird involve racial injustice and the destruction of innocence. Scholars have noted that Lee also addresses issues of class, courage, compassion, and gender roles in the Deep South. Despite its themes, To Kill a Mockingbird has been subject to campaigns for removal from public classrooms, often challenged for its use of racial epithets. It was adapted into an Academy Award-winning film in 1962, and since 1990, a play based on the novel has been performed annually in Harper Lee's hometown. To Kill a Mockingbird was Lee's only published book until Ghost Set a Watchman, which was not really a prequel or even a sequel, but an earlier draft of To Kill a Mockingbird, and that was published on July 14th in 2015. Lee continued to respond to her work's impact until her death in February of 2016. So, Phil, our novel is started by a narrator.

02:27 Phil Indeed. The story is narrated by a young girl named Jean Louise Finch, who is almost always called by her nickname, Scout. Scout starts to explain that the circumstances led to the broken arm, that her older brother, Jem, sustained many years earlier.

02:43 Frank Right. The story that constitutes almost the entirety of To Kill a Mockingbird is set in the time between Scout Finch's fifth and ninth birthdays. But Scout presumably commences the first-person narrative that opens the novel much later in her life. As a result, the narrative voice fluctuates between the child's point of view, chronicling events as they happen, and the adult voice looking back on her childhood many years later. And Katie, once Scout starts her narration, she immediately digresses, something she will do often.

03:12 Katie Right. She begins by recounting her family history. The first of her ancestors to come to America was a fur trader and apothecary named Simon Finch, who fled England to escape religious persecution and established a successful farm, Finch's Landing, on the banks of the Alabama River. The farm supported the family for many years. The first Finch to make a living away from the farm were Scout's father, Atticus Finch, who became a lawyer in a nearby town of Maycomb, and his brother, Jack Finch, who went to medical school in Boston. Their sister, Alexandra Finch, stayed to run the landing.

03:49 Phil A successful lawyer, Atticus makes a solid living in Maycomb. Now remember, this is the Depression, so everything is relative. Maycomb is a tired, poor old town in the grips of the Great Depression. He lives with Jem and Scout on Maycomb's main residential street. Their cook, an old black woman named Culpernia, helps to raise the children and keep the house. Atticus's wife died when Scout was two, so she doesn't remember her mother well. But Jem, four years older than Scout, has memories of their mother that sometimes make him unhappy.

04:18 Frank And Katie, we quickly meet two other characters.

04:20 Katie In the summer of 1933, when Jem is nearly 10 and Scout almost 6, a peculiar boy named Charles Baker Harris moves in next door. The boy, who calls himself Dill, stays for the summer with his aunt, Miss Rachel Haverford. Dill doesn't like to discuss his father's absence from his life, but he is otherwise a talkative and extremely intelligent boy who quickly becomes the Finch children's chief playmate. All summer, the three act out various stories they have read. When they grow bored of this activity, Dill suggests that they attempt to lure Boo Radley, the mysterious neighbor, out of his house.

04:58 Frank And Phil, who is Boo Radley?

05:00 Phil Arthur Boo Radley is a recluse who never sets foot outside his house. Boo dominates the imaginations of Jem, Scout, and Dill. Through the novel, he leaves little presence for Scout and Jem and later emerges at an opportune moment to save the children. An intelligent child emotionally damaged by his cruel father, Boo provides an example of the threat that evil poses to innocence and goodness. He is one of the novel's mockingbirds—that is, a good person injured by the evil of mankind.

05:28 Katie Scout recounts how, as a boy, Boo got in trouble with the law and his father imprisoned him in the house as punishment. He was not heard from until 15 years later when he stabbed his father with a pair of scissors. Although people suggest that Boo was crazy, old Mr. Radley refused to have his son committed to an asylum. When the old man died, Boo's brother, Nathan, came to live in the house with Boo. Nevertheless, Boo continued to stay inside.

05:55 Frank Boo Radley becomes the focus of the children's curiosity. As befits the perspective of childhood innocence, the recluse is given no identity apart from the youthful superstitions that surround him. Scout describes him as a malevolent phantom, over six feet tall, who eats squirrels and cats. Of course, the reader realizes that there must be more to Boo's story than these superstitions imply. Eventually, Boo will be transformed from a nightmare villain into a human being. And the children's understanding of him will reflect their own journey toward adulthood.

06:26 Phil Dill is fascinated by Boo and tries to convince the Finch children to help him outside. Eventually, he dares Jem to run over and touch the house. Jem does so, sprinting back hastily. There is no sign of movement at the Radley place, although Scout thinks that she sees a shudder move slightly, as if someone were peeking out.

06:43 Katie Dill dominates this early part of the novel, though he's only a summer visitor and has no connection to Maycomb's adult world. As this adult world asserts itself later in the novel, Dill fades from the story.

06:56 Frank As I've said, one of the central themes of To Kill a Mockingbird is the process of growing up and developing a more mature perspective on life. This narrative gradually comes to mirror a loss of innocence as the carefree childhood of these first chapters is slowly replaced by a darker, more dangerous, and more cynical adult story in which the children are really only minor participants.

07:18 Phil September arrives and Dill leaves Maycomb to return to the town of Meridian. Scout, meanwhile, prepares to go to school for the first time, an event that she has been eagerly anticipating. Once she is finally at school, however, she finds that her teacher, Miss Carolyn Fisher, deals poorly with children.

07:34 Katie When Scout shows that she's already a good reader, Miss Caroline concludes that Atticus must have taught Scout how to read, and she becomes very displeased and makes Scout feel guilty for being educated. Miss Caroline and Scout get along badly that first afternoon as well. Walter Cunningham, a boy in Scout's class, has not brought a lunch. Miss Caroline offers him a quarter to buy lunch, telling him that he can pay her back tomorrow.

08:00 Phil Scout knows Walter's family is large and poor, so poor that they pay Atticus with hickory nuts, turnip greens, or other goods when they need legal help. Walter will never be able to pay the teacher back or bring a lunch to school. When Scout attempts to explain the circumstances, however, Miss Caroline fails to understand and grows so frustrated that she slaps Scout's hand with a ruler.

08:20 Katie And at lunch, Jem invites Walter to dinner. At the Finch house, Walter and Atticus discuss farm conditions like two men, but to Scout's horror, Walter puts molasses all over his meat and vegetables. When she criticizes Walter, Capernia calls her into the kitchen to scold her and slaps her as she returns to the dining room, telling her to be a better hostess.

08:42 Phil Back at school, Miss Caroline becomes terrified when a tiny bug, or cootie, crawls out of a boy's hair. The boy is Burris Ewell, a member of the Ewell clan, which is even poorer and less respectable than the Cunningham clan. In fact, Burris only comes to school the first day of every school year, making a token appearance to avoid trouble with the law. He leaves the classroom, making enough vicious remarks to cause the teacher to cry.

09:05 Katie At home, Atticus follows Scout outside to ask her if something's wrong. to which she responds that she's not feeling well. She tells him that she does not think she will go back to school anymore and suggests that he could just teach her himself. Atticus replies that the law demands that she go to school, but he promises to keep reading to her as long as she does not tell her teacher about it.

09:26 Frank Scout's unpleasant first day of school has a threefold purpose, I think. It locates the reader's sympathies firmly with the narrator, Scout. It offers a further introduction to Maycomb's tortured social ladder. And it provides sharp social commentary on the theme of children and education.

09:42 Phil Throughout these early chapters, Scout continually incurs disfavor for well-intentioned actions. Scout's well-meaning missteps—telling the teacher about Walter's poverty, criticizing Walter for putting molasses on his meat and vegetables—earned harsh rebukes from the adult world, emphasizing the contrast between the comfortable, imaginative childhood world that Scout occupies and the more grown-up world she is now expected to occupy.

10:06 Frank These interactions set a pattern for the book and for the basic development of Scout as a character. Whether dealing with adults or with other children, Scout always means well, and her nature is essentially good. Her mistakes are honest mistakes, and while there is evil all around her in the novel, it does not infect her, nor does injustice disillusion her, as it will Jem.

10:27 Katie Young Walter Cunningham is the first glimpse we get of the Cunningham clan, part of the large population of poor farmers in the land around Maycomb. Walter's poverty introduces the very adult theme of social class into the novel. Scout notes that Maycomb was a run-down town caught up in the Great Depression, but so far we have seen only the upper-class side of town, represented by relatively successful and comfortable characters such as Atticus.

10:55 Frank But now, however, we begin to see the rest of Macomb, represented by the struggling Cunninghams and the dirt-poor Buells. A correlation between social status and moral goodness becomes evident as the novel progresses. At the top of this pyramid, of course, rests Atticus, a comparatively wealthy man whose moral standing is beyond reproach. Beneath him are the poor farmers as the Cunninghams. Walter's fondness for molasses on all of his food illustrates the difference in status between his family and the Finches. The Ewells are below even the Cunninghams on the social ladder, and their unapologetic, squalid ignorance and ill tempers quickly make them the villains of the story. We do not encounter them again until Part 2, but Burris's vicious cruelty in this section foreshadows the later behavior of his father, Bob Ewell. And finally, on the lowest ring is the town's black community.

11:45 Phil The rest of the school year passes grimly for Scout, who endures a curriculum that moves too slowly and leaves her constantly frustrated in class. After school one day, she passes the Radley place and sees some tinfoil sticking out of a knothole in one of the Radley's oak trees. Scout reaches into the knothole and discovers two pieces of chewing gum. She chews both pieces and tells Jim about it. He panics and makes her spit it out. On the last day of school, however, they find two old Indian head pennies hidden in the same knothole, and they decide to keep them.

12:15 Katie Summer comes at last. School ends, and Dill returns to make them. He, Scout, and Jem begin their games again. One of the first things they do is roll one another inside in an old tire. On Scout's turn, she rolls in front of the Radley steps, and Jem and Scout panic. However, this incident gives Jem the idea for their next game. They will play Boo Radley.

12:39 Phil As the summer passes, their game becomes more complicated until they are acting out an entire Radley family melodrama. Eventually, however, Atticus catches them and asks if their game has anything to do with the Radleys. Jem lies and Atticus goes back into the house, and the kids wonder if it's safe to play their game anymore.

12:56 Katie Jem and Dil grow closer and Scout begins to feel left out of their friendship. As a result, she starts spending much of her time with one of the neighbors, Miss Maudie Atkinson, a widow with a talent for gardening and cake baking. Miss Maudie Atkinson is a sharp-tongued widow and an old friend of the family. Miss Maudie is almost the same age as Atticus's younger brother, Jack. She shares Atticus's passion for justice and is the children's best friend among Maycomb's adults.

13:23 Phil She tells Scout that Boo Radley is still alive, and as her theory, Boo is the victim of a harsh father, now deceased. She calls the father a, quote, foot-washing Baptist, who believed that most people are going to hell. She adds that Boo was always polite and friendly as a child. She says that most of the rumors about him are false, but that if he wasn't crazy as a boy, he probably is by now. Miss Marty has only contempt for the superstitious view of Boo. He is no demon, and she knows that he is alive because she hasn't seen him, quote, carried out yet. End quote.

13:54 Frank Right, from her point of view, Boo was a nice boy who suffered at the hands of a tyrannically religious family. He's one of the many victims populating a book whose title, To Kill a Mockingbird, suggests the destruction of an innocent being. Boo epitomizes the loss of innocence that the book, as a whole, dramatizes. For the children, who first treat him as a superstition and an object of ridicule, but later come to view him as a human being, Boo becomes an important benchmark in their gradual development of a more sympathetic, mature perspective.

14:23 Katie And Miss Maudie is one of the book's strongest, most resilient female characters. One of the few people in the town who shares Atticus's sense of justice, she is also Scout's closest friend and confidant among the local women. Atticus's wife is dead, leaving Scout with Miss Maudie and Aunt Alexandra as her principal maternal figures.

14:43 Phil Aunt Alexandra, Atticus's sister, is a strong-willed woman with a fierce devotion to her family. Alexandra is the perfect Southern lady, and her commitment to propriety and tradition often leads her to clash with Scout.

14:55 Frank Whereas the latter provides a vision of proper womanhood and family pride, the former offers Scout understanding instead of criticizing her for wearing pants and not being very ladylike. Miss Marty is a stronger role model for Scout. She serves as a conscience for the town's women, just as Atticus does for the men.

15:14 Katie Meanwhile, Jem and Dill plan to get a note to Boo, inviting him out to get ice cream with them. They try to stick the note in a window of the Radley place with a fishing pole, but Atticus catches them again and orders them to quote, stop tormenting that man, with either notes or the Boo-Radley game.

15:32 Phil Jem and Dill obey Atticus until Dill's last day in Maycomb, when he and Jem plan to sneak over to the Radley place and peek in through a loose shutter. Scout accompanies them, and they creep around the house, peering in through various windows. Suddenly, they see the shadow of a man with a hat on and flee, hearing a shotgun go off behind them. They escape onto the fence by the schoolyard, but Jem's pants get caught on the fence, and he has to kick them off in order to free himself.

15:56 Katie The children return home, where they encounter a collection of neighborhood adults, including Atticus, Miss Motty, and Miss Stephanie Crawford, the neighborhood gossip. Miss Motty informs them that Mr. Nathan Radley shot at, quote, a Negro, end quote, in his yard. Miss Stephanie adds that Mr. Radley is waiting outside with his gun so he can shoot at the next sound he hears.

16:19 Phil When Atticus asks Jem where his pants are, Dill interjects that he won Jem's pants in a game of strip poker. Alarmed, Atticus asks them if they were playing cards. Jem responds that they were just playing with matches. So much better. Late that night, Jem sneaks out to the Radley place and retrieves his pants.

16:37 Katie And a few days later, after school has begun for the year, Jem tells Scout that he found the pants mysteriously mended and hung neatly over the fence. When they come home from school that day, they find another present hidden in the knot hole. A ball of gray twine. They leave it there for a few days, but no one takes it, so they claim it for their own.

16:58 Phil Unsurprisingly, Scout is as unhappy in second grade as she was in first. But Jem promises her that school gets better the farther along one goes. Late that fall, another present appears in the knothole—two figures carved in soap to resemble Scout and Jem. The figures are followed in turn by chewing gum, a spelling bee medal, and an old pocket watch. Eventually, Jem and Scout find that the knothole has been filled with cement. When Jem asks Boo's brother Nathan about the knothole the following day, Mr. Radley replies that he plugged the knothole because the tree is dying.

17:28 Katie In comparison to Scout's still very childish perspective, Jem's more mature understanding of the world is evident here, along with his strong sense of justice. When Nathan Radley plugs up the hole in the tree, Scout is disappointed but hardly heartbroken, seeing it as merely the end of their presence. Jem, on the other hand, is brought to tears because he grasps that Boo's brother has done something cruel. He has deprived Boo of his connection to the wider world and has broken up his brother's attempt at friendship.

17:59 Phil For the first time in years, Maycomb endures a real winter. There is even light snowfall, an event rare enough for school to be closed. Since there is not enough snow to make a real snowman, they build a small figure out of dirt and cover it with snow. They make it look like Mr. Avery, an unpleasant man who lives down the street. The figure's likeness to Mr. Avery is so strong that Atticus demands that they disguise it. Jem places Miss Maudie's sun hat on its head and sticks her hedge clippers in its hands, much to her chagrin.

18:26 Frank The implicit comparison between Boo's soap figures and Gem and Scout's snowman reveals the difference in how each party interacts with others. Whereas Boo carves his figures out of a desire to connect with the two kids, Gem and Scout craft their snowman out of a dislike for Mr. Avery. Further, Boo doesn't make his carvings for himself, rather he offers them as presents. Jem and Scout, on the other hand, make the snowman purely for their own enjoyment. Boo interacts with others on their terms, while the children, not yet mature, interact with others on their own terms. Readers, let's take a quick break here, and when we come back, we'll continue our conversation about the novel, To Kill a Mockingbird. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. Phil, you want to continue our story?

19:23 Phil Absolutely. So that night, Atticus wakes Scout and helps her put on her bathrobe and coat and goes outside with her and Jem. Miss Maudie's house is on fire. The neighbors help her save her furniture, and the fire truck arrives in time to stop the fire from spreading to other houses, but Miss Maudie's house burns to the ground.

19:40 Katie In the confusion, someone drapes a blanket over Scout. When Atticus later asks her about it, she has no idea who put it over her. Jem realizes that Boo Radley put it on her, and he reveals the whole story of the knot hole, the presents, and the mended pants to Atticus.

19:58 Frank The fire represents an important turning point in the narrative structure of To Kill a Mockingbird. Before the fire, the novel centers on Scout's childhood world, the games that she plays with Jem and Dill, and their childhood superstitions about Boo Radley. After the fire, Boo Radley and childhood pursuits begin to retreat from the story. This shift begins the novel's gradual dramatization of the loss of innocence theme. as adult problems and concerns begin disrupting the happy world of the Finch children.

20:26 Phil Despite having lost her house, Miss Maudie is cheerful the next day. She tells the children how much she hated her old home, and she is already planning to build a smaller house and plant a larger garden. She says that she wishes she had been there when Boop put the blanket on Scout to catch him in the act.

20:40 Frank At school, Scout nearly starts a fight with a classmate named Cecil Jacobs after Cecil uses an offensive racial slur to declare that Atticus defends black people. Atticus has been asked to defend Tom Robinson, a black man accused of raping a white woman. It is a case he cannot hope to win, but Atticus tells Scout that he must argue it to uphold his sense of justice and self-respect.

21:02 Katie The occasion for the adult world to intrude on Scout's life is this trial of Tom Robinson. Because Robinson is a black man accused of raping a white woman, the white residents of Maycomb are furious that Atticus, the town's best lawyer, would choose to help his cause.

21:19 Phil The townspeople are unwilling to limit their displays of anger to Atticus himself. Scout and Jem become targets as well. The town of Macomb, whose inhabitants have been presented thus far in a largely positive light, suddenly turns against the Finches as the ugly, racist underbelly of Southern life exposes itself.

21:37 Katie Even members of Atticus's own family, Alexandria and her obnoxious grandson, condemn his decision to defend Tom Robinson. Aunt Alexandra, Atticus's sister, a strong-willed woman with a fierce devotion to her family. Alexandra is the perfect southern lady and her commitment to propriety and tradition often leads her to clash with Scout. This marks Alexandra's first appearance in the story, and her portrayal is mostly negative, only later will she develop into a sympathetic character.

22:08 Frank The adversity faced by the family reveals Atticus's parenting style, his focus on instilling moral values in Jem and Scout. Particularly important to Atticus are justice, restraint, and honesty. He tells his children to avoid getting in fights, even if they're verbally abused, and to practice quiet courage instead. When he gives Jem and Scout air rifles as presents, he advises them that it is a sin to kill a mockingbird. This idea is, of course, the source of the novel's title, and it reflects the book's preoccupation with injustices inflicted upon innocents. In different ways, Jem and Scout, Boo Radley, and Tom Robinson are all mockingbirds. Innocents.

22:47 Phil On Christmas Day, Atticus takes his children and their Uncle Jack to Finch's Landing, a rambling old house in the country where Atticus's sister Alexandra and her husband live. There, Scout endures Francis, Alexandra's grandson. Scout thinks Francis is the most boring child she has ever met.

23:06 Katie One night, Frances tells Scout that Dill is a runt and then uses an offensive racial slur to belittle Atticus. Scout curses Frances and beats him up. Frances tells Alexandra and Uncle Jack that Scout hit him, and Uncle Jack spanks Scout without hearing her side of the story. After they return to Maycomb, Scout tells Jack what Frances said, and Jack becomes furious.

23:32 Phil Scout makes him promise not to tell Atticus, however, because Atticus had asked her not to fight anyone over what is said about him. Jack promises and keeps his word.

23:41 Katie Later, Scout overhears Atticus telling Jack, During a digression, Scout tells us Atticus is somewhat older than most of the other fathers in Maycomb. His relatively advanced age often embarrasses his children. He wears glasses and reeds, for instance, instead of hunting and fishing like the other men in town.

24:00 Phil One day, however, a rabid dog appears, wandering down the main street toward the Finch's house. Calpurnia calls Atticus, who returns home with Heck Tate, the sheriff of Maycomb. Heck brings a rifle and asks Atticus to shoot the animal.

24:15 Katie To Jem and Scout's amazement, Atticus does so, hitting the dog with his first shot despite his considerable distance from the dog. Later, Ms. Motty tells Jem and Scout that, as a young man, Atticus was the best shot in the county. One shot finch, we called him. Scout is eager to brag about this, but Jem tells her to keep it a secret, because if Atticus wanted them to know, he would have told them.

24:39 Frank The incident with the mad dog demonstrates Atticus's courage and symbolizes the town's dependence upon his protection from both the rabid animal and the worst evil within themselves. That scout in particular is so impressed with the masculine prowess with which she associates his marksmanship symbolizes how much she still has to learn about courage. In Atticus's mind, true bravery has nothing to do with weapons.

25:03 Phil By this time, Jem has reached the age of 12, and he begins to demand that Scout, quote, stop pestering him and act more like a girl. Scout becomes upset and looks forward desperately to Dill's arrival in the summer. To Scout's disappointment, however, Dill does not come to make him this year. He sends a letter saying that he has a new father, presumably his mother has remarried, and will stay with his family in Meridian. To make matters worse, the state legislature, of which Atticus is a member, is called into session, forcing Atticus to travel to the state capitol every day for two weeks.

25:35 Katie Calpurnia decides to take the children to her church, a, quote, colored church, that Sunday. Maycomb's black church is an old building called First Purchase because it was bought with the first earnings of freed slaves. One woman, Lula, criticizes Calpurnia for bringing white children to church, but the congregation is generally friendly and Reverend Sykes welcomes them, saying that everyone knows their father.

26:00 Phil The church has no money for hymnals, and few of the parishioners can read. So they sing by echoing the words that Zebo, Calpurnia's eldest son and the town garbage collector, reads from their only hymnal. Rev. Sykes takes up a collection for Tom Robinson's wife Helen, who cannot find work now that her husband has been accused of rape. After the service, Scout learns that Tom Robinson has been accused by Bob Ewell and cannot understand why anyone would believe the Ewell's word.

26:24 Katie Scout's journey to Calpurnia's church is the reader's first glimpse of the black community in Maycomb, which is portrayed in an overwhelmingly positive light. An air of desperate poverty hangs over the church. The building is unpainted, they cannot afford hymnals, and the congregation is illiterate, yet the adversity seems to bring the people closer together and creates a stronger sense of community than is found in Scout's own church.

26:50 Phil In addition, Lee introduces the Black community at a crucial moment in the narrative, just as race relations in Maycomb are thrown into crisis by the trial of Tom Robinson. By emphasizing the goodness and solidarity of the Black community, Lee casts the racism rampant among Maycomb's whites in an extremely harsh, even ugly light.

27:09 Frank One of the main moral themes of the novel is that of sympathy and understanding, Atticus's tenet that Scout should always try to put herself in someone else's shoes before she judges them. Simply because of their racial prejudice, the townspeople are prepared to accept the word of the cruel, ignorant Bob Ewell over that of a decent black man. If the novel's main theme involves the threat that evil and hatred pose to innocence and goodness, it becomes clear that ignorant, unsympathetic racial prejudice will be the predominant incarnation of this evil and hatred.

27:39 Katie The visit to the church brings Calpurnia to center stage in the novel. Her character serves as the bridge between two worlds, and the reader develops a sense of her double life, which is split between the Finch household and the black community.

27:53 Phil When she goes to church, her language changes. She speaks in a, quote, colored dialect rather than the proper, precise language that she uses in Atticus's household. Jem asks her why, and she explains that the churchgoers would think she was, quote, putting on airs fit to beat Moses if she spoke white in church. This speech demonstrates the gulf between black people and white people in Macomb. Not only do class distinctions and bigotry divide the two races, but language does as well.

28:21 Katie And when the children return home, they find Aunt Alexandra waiting for them. Aunt Alexandra explains that she should stay with the children for a while to give them a, quote, feminine influence. Maycombe gives her a fine welcome. Various ladies in town bake her cakes and have her over for coffee, and she soon becomes an integral part of the town's social life.

28:43 Phil Aunt Alexandria takes over the Finch household and imposes her vision of social order. With her rigid notions of class and her habit of declaring what's best for the family, she naturally clashes with Calpurnia, whose presence she deems unnecessary, and Scout, who wants no part of what her aunt represents, namely respectable Southern womanhood.

29:02 Frank The reader may side with Scout at this juncture and consider Anne-Alexandra inflexible and narrow-minded, but, like many of the book's characters, she has some redeeming qualities. She may not have her brother's fierce yearning for justice or his parenting abilities, but her eagerness to rear Jem and Scout properly and her pride in the Finch name demonstrates that she cares deeply about her family.

29:24 Phil The impending trial of Tom Robinson and Atticus's role as his defense lawyer make Jem and Scout the objects of whispers and glances whenever they go to town. One day, Scout tries to ask Atticus what rape is, and the subject of the children's trip to Calpurnia's church comes up. Aunt Alexandra tells Scout she can't go back the next Sunday.

29:43 Katie Later, she tries to convince Atticus to get rid of Calpurnia, saying that they no longer need her. Atticus refuses. That night, Jem tells Scout not to antagonize Alexandra. Scout gets angry at being lectured and attacks Jem. Atticus breaks up the fight and sends them to bed.

30:02 Phil Scout discovers something under her bed. She calls Jem in and they discover Dill hiding there. Dill has run away from home because his mother and new father did not pay enough attention to him. He took a train from Meridian to Macomb Junction, 14 miles away, and covered the remaining distance on foot and in the back of a cotton wagon. Jem goes down the hall and tells Atticus.

30:22 Katie Atticus asks Scout to get more food than a pan of cold cornbread for Dill before going next door to tell Dill's aunt, Miss Rachel, of his whereabouts.

30:31 Phil A week after Jill's arrival, a group of men, led by the sheriff, Heck Tate, come to Atticus's house in the evening. As the trial is nearing, Tom Robinson is to be moved to the Maycomb jail, and concerns about the possibility of a lynch mob have arisen.

30:45 Katie The following evening, Atticus takes the car into town. Later, Jem, accompanied by Scout and Dill, sneak out of the house and follow his father to the town center. From a distance, they see Atticus sitting in front of the Maycomb jail, reading a newspaper. Jem suggests that they do not disturb Atticus and return home.

31:05 Phil At that moment, four cars drive into Maycomb and park near the jail. A group of men gets out, and one demands that Atticus move away from the jailhouse door. Atticus refuses. Scout suddenly comes racing out of her hiding place, only to realize that this group of men differs from the group that came to their house the previous night.

31:24 Frank Jem and Dil follow her, and Atticus orders Jem to go home. Jem refuses. Symbolically, this scene marks Jem's transition from boy to man, as he stands beside Atticus and refuses to go home, since only a child would do so. Though he disobeys his father, he does not do so petulantly, but maturely. He understands Atticus's difficult situation with regard to the case, and he fears for Atticus's safety.

31:49 Katie Meanwhile, Scout looks around the group and recognizes Mr. Cunningham, the father of her classmate, Walter. She starts talking to him and asks him to tell his son hey. All of the men stare at her. Mr. Cunningham, suddenly ashamed, squats down and tells Scout that he will tell his son hey for her, and then tells his companions to clear out.

32:12 Phil They depart, and Mr. Underwood, the owner of the newspaper, speaks from a nearby window where he is positioned with a double-barreled shotgun. Had you covered all the time, Atticus! Atticus and Mr. Underwood talk for a while, and then Atticus takes the children home.

32:25 Frank Some critics find this scene unconvincing and pat, wondering how Scout can remain so blissfully unaware of what is really going on and how Mr. Cunningham can be persuaded by Scout's sudden courtesy to break up this drunken lynch mob. As Atticus says later, the events of that night prove that quote, a gang of wild animals can be stopped simply because they're still human. Readers, let's take a quick break here, and then when we come back, we'll get into our discussion about the trial of Tom Robinson. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We're having a conversation today about the novel To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee. Katie, we were about to start the trial of Tom Robinson.

33:17 Katie Yes. The trial begins the next day. People from all over the county flood the town. Everyone makes an appearance in the courtroom, from Miss Stephanie Crawford to Mr. Dolphus Raymond, a wealthy eccentric who owns land on a riverbank near the county line. He is involved with a black woman. and has biracial children. Only Miss Motty refuses to go, saying that watching someone on trial for his life is like attending a Roman carnival.

33:44 Phil The vast crowd camps in the town square to eat lunch. Afterward, Jem, Scout, and Dill wait for most of the crowd to enter the courthouse so they can slip in at the back and thus prevent Atticus from noticing them. However, because they wait too long, they succeed in getting seats only when Reverend Sykes, lets them see it in the, quote, colored balcony, where black people are required to sit in order to watch the trial. From these seats, they can see the whole courtroom. Judge Taylor, a white-haired old man with a reputation for running his court in an informal fashion, presides over the case.

34:16 Katie The prosecutor, Mr. Gilmer, questions Heck Tate, who recounts how, on the night of November 21st, Bob Ewell urged him to go to the Ewell house and told him that his daughter, Mayella, has been raped. When Tate got there, he found Mayella bruised and beaten, and she told him that Tom Robinson had raped her. Atticus cross-examines the witness, who admits that no doctor was summoned, and tells Atticus that Mayella's bruises were concentrated on the right side of her face. Tate leaves the stand, and Bob Ewell is called.

34:48 Phil So Bob Ewell and his children live behind the town garbage dump, in a tin-roofed cabin with a yard full of trash. No one is sure how many children Ewell has, and the only orderly corner of the yard is planted with well-tended geraniums, rumored to belong to Mayella. Ewell testifies that on the evening question, he was coming out of the woods with a load of kindling when he heard his daughter yelling.

35:09 Katie When he reached the house, he looked in the window and he saw Tom Robinson raping her. Robinson fled and Ewell went into the house, saw that his daughter was alright, and ran for the sheriff. Atticus's cross-examination is brief. He asks Mr. Ewell why no doctor was called. Ewell says it was too expensive and there was no need. Atticus then has the witness write his name. Bob Ewell the jury sees is left-handed, and a left-handed man would be more likely to leave bruises on the right side of a girl's face.

35:42 Frank Though the trial targets Tom Robinson, in another sense it is Maycomb that is on trial. And while Atticus eventually loses the court case, he successfully reveals the injustice of a stratified society that combines black people to a, quote, colored balcony, and allows the word of a despicable, ignorant man like Bob Ewell to prevail without question over the word of a man who happens to be black.

36:07 Phil There is no real suspense. Even Atticus knows that the verdict is a foregone conclusion. No matter what evidence is presented at the trial, the racist jury would never, under any circumstances, acquit a black man accused of raping a white woman. The reader knows that Tom Robinson will be found guilty.

36:24 Katie Jem, still clinging to his youthful illusion about life working according to concepts of fairness, doesn't understand that his father's brilliant efforts will be in vain. He believes that the irrefutable implications of the evidence will clinch the case for Atticus. When Jem says, quote, we've got him, after Bob Ewell is shown to be left-handed, the reader knows better.

36:48 Phil Bob Ewell's real name is Robert E. Lee Ewell, a moniker that links him with the South's past and makes him absurd by comparison with his namesake, General Robert E. Lee, who fought valiantly for the Confederacy in the Civil War, despite his opposition to slavery. If Robert E. Lee represents the idealized South, then Bob Ewell epitomizes its darker and less respectable side, dominated by thoughtless prejudice, squalor, and meanness.

37:15 Katie The trial continues with the whole town glued to the proceedings. Mayella, who testifies next, is a reasonably clean, by Ewell standards, and obviously terrified 19-year-old. She says that she called Tom Robinson inside the fence that evening and offered him a nickel to break up a dresser for her, and that once he got inside the house, he grabbed her and took advantage of her.

37:39 Phil Atticus then examines her testimony and asks why she didn't put up a better fight, why her screams didn't bring the other children running, and most important, how Tom Robinson managed the crime, how he bruised the right side of her face with his useless left hand, which was torn apart by a cotton gin when he was a boy.

37:57 Katie Atticus pleads with Mayella to admit that there's no rape, that her father beat her. She shouts at him and yells that the courtroom would have to be a bunch of cowards not to convict Tom Robinson. She then bursts into tears, refusing to answer any more questions.

38:13 Frank Readers, Mayella Ewell is pitiful, and her miserable existence almost allows her to join the novel's parade of innocent victims. She, too, is kind of a mockingbird, injured beyond repair by the forces of ugliness, poverty, and hatred that surround her. Lee's presentation of Mayella emphasizes her role as victim. She has lacked kind treatment in her life to such an extent that when Atticus calls her Miss Mayella, She accuses him of making fun of her.

38:39 Phil She has no friends, and Scout seems justified in thinking that she, quote, must have been the loneliest person in the world. On the other hand, though, Scout's picture of Mela as a victim is marred by her attempt to become a victimizer, to destroy Tom Robinson in order to cover her shame.

38:55 Frank Right, at the end here, we can have little real sympathy for Mayella. Whatever her sufferings, she inflicts worse cruelty on others. Unlike Mr. Cunningham, who was touched enough by Scout's human warmth to disperse the lynch mob, Mayella responds to Atticus's polite interrogation with grouchy snarls. The prosecution rests, and Atticus calls only one witness.

39:16 Phil Tom Robinson. Tom testifies that he always passed the Yule house on the way to work, and that Mayella often asked him to do chores for her. On the evening in question, he recounts, she asked him to come inside the house and fix a door. When he got inside, there was nothing wrong with the door, and he noticed that the other children were gone.

39:34 Katie Mayella told him that she saved her money and sent them all to buy ice cream. Then, she asked him to lift a box down from a dresser. When Tom climbed on a chair, she grabbed his leg, scaring him so much that he jumped down. Then, she hugged him around the waist and asked him to kiss her. As she struggled, her father appeared at the window, calling Mayella a whore and threatening to kill her. And Tom fled.

39:57 Phil Link Diaz, Tom's white employer, stands up and declares that in eight years of work, he has never had any trouble from Tom. Judge Taylor furiously expels Diaz from the courtroom for interrupting.

40:08 Katie Mr. Gilmart gets up and cross-examines Tom. The prosecutor points out that the defendant was once arrested for disorderly conduct and gets Tom to admit that he has the strength, even with one hand, to choke the breath out of a woman and sling her to the floor.

40:24 Phil Mr. Gilmore reviews Mailer's testimony, accusing Tom of lying about everything, calling Tom a boy, and accusing him at every turn. The racist Mr. Gilmore believes that Tom must be lying, must be violent, must lust after white women simply because he is black. Dill begins to cry, and Scout takes him out of the courtroom.

40:42 Katie Pity must be reserved for Tom Robinson, whose honesty and goodness render him supremely moral. Unlike the Ewels, Tom is hardworking and honest, and has enough compassion to make the fatal mistake of feeling sorry for Mayella. His story is the true version of events. Because of both Tom's obviously truthful nature and Atticus's brilliant and morally scathing questioning of the Ewels, the story leaves no room for doubt.

41:10 Frank But just as clear as it is that Tom is innocent, it's equally clear that Tom is doomed to die.

41:16 Phil As they walk, Scout and Dill encounter Mr. Dolphus Raymond, the rich white man with the black mistress and mixed-race children. He reveals that he is drinking from a paper sack. He commiserates with Dill and offers him a drink in a paper bag.

41:30 Katie Dill slurps up some of this liquid, and Scout warns him not to take much. But Dill reveals to her that the drink isn't alcohol. It's only Coca-Cola. Mr. Raymond tells the children that he pretends to be drunk to provide the other white people with an explanation for his lifestyle, when, in fact, he simply prefers black people to whites.

41:52 Frank I guess in a way, Mr. Raymond is another illustration of an innocent destroyed by hatred and prejudice. A moral and conscientious man, he's also an unhappy figure, a good man who has turned cynical and lost hope after witnessing too much evil in the world. He tells Scout, you haven't seen enough of the world yet, commenting on how special and good her father is and her innocent belief in human goodness. You haven't even seen this town, but all you got to do is step back inside that courthouse.

42:20 Phil When Dylan Scout returned to the courtroom, Atticus is making his closing remarks. He has finished going over the evidence and now makes a personal appeal to the jury. He points out that the prosecution has produced no medical evidence of the crime and has presented only the shaky testimony of two unreliable witnesses. Moreover, the physical evidence suggests that Bob Ewell, not Tom Robinson, beat Mayella.

42:42 Katie He then offers his own version of events describing how Mayella, lonely and unhappy, committed the unmentionable act of lusting after a black man and then concealed her shame by accusing him of rape after being caught. Atticus begs the jury to avoid the state's assumption that all black people are criminals and to deliver justice by freeing Tom Robinson. As soon as Atticus finishes, Calpurnia comes into the courtroom.

43:09 Phil Calpurnia hands Atticus a note, telling him that his children have not been home since noon. Mr. Underwood says that Jem and Scout are in the balcony and have been there since just after one in the afternoon. Atticus tells them to go home and have supper. They beg to be allowed to hear the verdict. Atticus says that they can return after supper, though he knows that the jury will likely have returned before then.

43:30 Katie Calpurnia marches Jem, Scout, and Dill home. They eat quickly and return to find the jury is still out. The courtroom is still full. Evening comes, night falls, and the jury continues to deliberate. Jem is confident of victory, while Dill has fallen asleep. Finally, after 11 that night, the jury enters. Scout remembers that a jury never looks at a man it has convicted, and she notices that the 12 men do not look at Tom Robinson as they file in and deliver a guilty verdict. The courtroom begins to empty, and as Atticus goes out, everyone in the, quote, colored balcony rises in a gesture of respect.

44:12 Phil That night, Jem cries, railing against the injustice of the verdict. The next day, Maycomb's black population delivers an avalanche of food to the Finch household. Outside, Ms. Stephanie Crawford is gossiping with Mr. Avery and Ms. Maudie, and she tries to question Gemin Scout about the trial.

44:28 Katie Ms. Motty rescues the children by inviting them in for some cake. Jem complains that his illusion about Maycomb has been shattered. He thought that these people were the best people in the world, but having seen the trial, he doesn't think so anymore. Ms. Motty points out that there were people who tried to help, like Judge Taylor, who appointed Atticus to the case instead of a regular public defender. She adds that the jury staying out so long constitutes a sign of progress in race relations. As the children leave Miss Maudie's house, Miss Stephanie runs over to tell them that Bob Ewell accosted their father that morning, spat on him, and swore revenge.

45:08 Phil Bob Ewell's threats are worrisome to everyone except Atticus. He tells Gem and Scout that because he made Ewell look like a fool, Ewell needed to get revenge. Now that Ewell has gotten that vengefulness out of his system, Atticus expects no more trouble. Aunt Alexandra and the children remain worried.

45:23 Katie Meanwhile, Tom Robinson has been sent to another prison 70 miles away while his appeal winds through the court system. Atticus feels that his client has a good chance of being pardoned. When Scout asks what will happen if Tom loses, Atticus replies that Tom will go to the electric chair, as rape is a capital offense in Alabama.

45:44 Frank Jem and Atticus discuss the justice of executing men for rape. The subject then turns to jury trials and to how all 12 men could have convicted Tom. Atticus tells Jem that in an Alabama court of law, a white man's word always beats a black man's, and that they were lucky to have the jury out so long. In fact, one man on the jury wanted to acquit. Amazingly, it was one of the Cunninghams. Upon hearing this revelation, Scout announces that she wants to invite young Walter Cunningham to dinner, but Anne Alexandra expressly forbids it, telling her that the Finches do not associate with trash.

46:19 Phil Scout grows furious, and Jem hastily takes her out of the room. In his bedroom, they discuss the class system, why their aunt despises the Cunninghams, why the Cunninghams look down on the Yules, who hate black people. After being unable to figure out why people go out of their way to despise each other, Jem suggests Boo Radley does not come out of his house because he doesn't want to leave it.

46:40 Katie One day in August, Aunt Alexandra invites her missionary circle to tea. Scout, wearing a dress, helps Calpurnia bring in the tea, and Alexandra invites Scout to stay with the ladies. Scout listens to the missionary circle first discuss the plight of the poor Maroonas, a benighted African tribe being converted to Christianity, and then talks about how their own black servants have behaved badly ever since Tom Robinson's trial.

47:08 Phil Miss Maudie shuts up their prattle with icy remarks. Suddenly Atticus appears and calls Alexander to the kitchen. There he tells her, Scout, Calpurnia, and Miss Maudie that Tom Robinson attempted to escape and was shot 17 times. He takes Calpurnia with him to tell the Robinson family of Tom's death.

47:27 Katie Jem convinces Atticus to let them accompany him to Helen Robinson's house, where they saw her collapse even before Atticus could say that her husband, Tom, was dead. Meanwhile, the news occupies Maycomb's attention for about two days, and everyone agrees that it is typical for a black man to do something irrational like try to escape. Mr. Underwood writes a long editorial condemning Tom's death as a murder of an innocent man. The only other significant reaction comes when Bob Ewell is overheard saying that Tom's death makes, quote, one down and about two more to go. Summer ends and Dill leaves.

48:07 Phil School starts, and Jem and Scout again begin to pass by the Radley place every day. They are now too old to be frightened by the house, but Scout still wistfully wishes to see Abu Radley just once. Meanwhile, the shadow of the trial still hangs over her. One day in school, her third-grade teacher, Ms. Gates, lectures the class on the wickedness of Hitler's persecution of the Jews and on the virtues of equality and democracy.

48:32 Katie Scout listens and later asks Jem how Miss Gates can preach about equality when she came out of the courthouse after the trial and told Miss Stephanie Crawford that it was about time that someone taught the black people in this town a lesson. Jem becomes furious and tells Scout never to mention the trial to him again.

48:49 Phil By the middle of October, Bob Ewell gets a job with the WPA, one of the depression job programs, and loses it a few days later. He blames Adequus for, quote, getting his job. Also in the middle of October, Judge Taylor is home alone and hears someone prowling around. When he goes to investigate, he finds his screen door open and sees a shadow creeping away. Bob Ewell then begins to follow Helen Robinson to work, keeping his distance but whispering obscenities at her.

49:15 Katie Link Dias sees Uol and threatens to have him arrested if he doesn't leave Helen alone. He gives her no further trouble, but these events worry Aunt Alexandra, who points out that Uol seems to have a grudge against everyone connected with the case.

49:32 Frank These short chapters are marked by a growing sense of real danger. The after-effects of the trial continue to loom. Bob Ewell shows himself to be sinister, and the fact that he has not yet attempted anything against the Finches only increases that sense of foreboding.

49:46 Phil That Halloween, the town sponsors a party and play at the school. This plan constitutes an attempt to avoid the unsupervised mischief of the previous Halloween, when someone burglarized the house of two elderly sisters and hid all of their furniture in the basement. The play is an agricultural pageant in which every child portrays a food. Scout wears a wire mesh shaped to look like a ham. Both Atticus and Aunt Alexander are too tired to attend the festivities, so Jem takes Scout to the school.

50:16 Katie It is dark on the way to the school, and Cecil Jacobs jumps out and frightens Jem and Scout. Scout and Cecil wander around the crowded school, visiting the haunted house in a 7th grade classroom and buying some homemade candy. The pageant nears its start and all of the children go backstage. Scout, however, has fallen asleep and consequently misses her entrance. She runs on stage at the end, prompting Judge Taylor and many others to burst out laughing. The woman in charge of the pageant accuses Scout of ruining it. Scout is so ashamed that she and Jem wait backstage until the crowd is gone before they make their way home.

50:53 Phil On the walk back home, Jem hears noises behind him and Scout. They think it must be Cecil Jacobs trying to frighten them again. But when they call out to him, they hear no reply. They have almost reached the road when their pursuer begins running after them. Jem screams for Scout to run, but in the dark, hampered by her costume, she loses her balance and falls. Something tears at the metal mesh, and she hears struggling behind her.

51:16 Katie Jem then breaks free and drags Scout almost all the way to the road before their assailant pulls him back. Scout hears a crunching sound and Jem screams. She runs toward him and is grabbed and squeezed. Suddenly, her attacker is pulled away. Once the noise of the struggling has ceased, Scout feels on the ground for Jem, finding only the prone figure of an unshaven man smelling of whiskey. She stumbles toward home and sees, in the light of the streetlamp, a man carrying Jem toward her house.

51:49 Phil Scout reaches home, and Aunt Alexandra goes to call Dr. Reynolds. Atticus calls Heck Tate, telling him that someone has attacked his children. Alexandra removes Scout's costume and tells her that Jem is only unconscious, not dead. Dr. Reynolds then arrives and goes into Jem's room. When he emerges, he informs Scout that Jem has a broken arm and a bump on his head, but he will be alright.

52:11 Katie Scout goes in to see Jem. The man who carried him home is in the room, but she does not recognize him. Hectate appears and tells Atticus that Bob Ool is lying under a tree, dead, with a knife stuck under his rib. As Scout tells everyone what she heard and saw, Hectate shows her costume with a mark on it where the knife slashed and was stopped by the wire. When Scout gets to the point in the story where Jim was picked up and carried home, she turns to the man in the corner and really looks at him for the first time. He is pale, with torn clothes and a thin, pinched face and colorless eyes. She realizes that it is Boo Radley.

52:52 Phil Scout takes Boo—that is, Mr. Arthur—down to the porch, and they sit in shadow, listening to Atticus and Heck Tate argue. Heck insists on calling the death an accident, but Atticus, thinking that Jem killed Bob Ewell, doesn't want his son protected from the law. Heck corrects him. Ewell fell on his knife. Jem didn't kill him. Although he knows that Boo is the one who stabbed Ewell, Heck wants to hush up the whole affair, saying that Boo doesn't need the attention of the neighborhood brought to his door. Tom Robinson died for no reason, he says, and now the man responsible is dead. Quote, let the dead bury the dead.

53:28 Katie Scout takes Boo upstairs to say goodnight to Jem and then walks him home. He goes inside his house and she never sees him again, but for just a moment, she imagines a world from his perspective. She returns home and finds Atticus sitting in Jem's room. He reads one of Jem's books to her until she falls asleep.

53:49 Frank Hectate's decision to spare Boo the horror of publicity by saying that Bob Ewell fell on his knife again invokes the title of the book and its central theme one last time. Scout says that exposing Boo to the public eye would be, quote, sort of like shooting a mockingbird. unquote. She has appropriated not only Atticus's words, but his outlook, as she suddenly sees the world through Boo's eyes. In this moment of understanding and sympathy, Scout takes her second great step toward a grown-up moral perspective.

54:20 Phil The reader gets the sense that all of Scout's previous experiences have led her to this enriching moment. and that Scout will be able to grow up without having her experience of evil destroy her faith in goodness. Not only has Boo become a real person to her, but in saving the children's lives, he has also provided concrete proof that goodness exists in powerful and unexpected forms, just as evil does.

54:45 Frank And readers, despite Scout's obvious maturation at the end, the novel closes with her falling asleep as Atticus reads to her. This enduring image of her as Atticus's baby child is fitting. For while she has grown up quite a bit over the course of the novel, she's still, after all, only eight years old. The book makes no return to the adult Scout for closing narration. Just as her ham costume, a symbol of the silly and carefree nature of childhood, prevents Bob Ewell's knife from injuring her, So does the timely intervention of Boo, another part of Scout's childhood, thwart the total intrusion into her life of the often hate-filled adult world that Ewell represents. Harper Lee offers the reader no details of Scout's future, except to say that she never sees Boo again. Rather, she leaves Scout and the reader with a powerful feeling of cautious optimism, an acknowledgement that the existence of evil is balanced by faith in the essential goodness of humankind. And so our story ends. Let's take a break here and when we come back we'll head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Okay, welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Porcelli and Phil Setnick. Katie, Phil, before our break, we ended our story, and now I'd like to have the two of you perhaps share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't gotten to yet. Katie, do you have something for us?

56:33 Katie I don't think I really do, except to say that everyone should read it. That even sitting here talking about it now, it's making me well up with tears and feel every emotion that they feel.

56:47 Frank Thanks for sharing that. Phil, do you have something? Oh, I have a few things. Oh, you want to give one of them to Katie?

56:55 Phil There were a couple of themes in the book that were troubling, a lot of themes in the book that are troubling, some of them more obvious than others. There's certainly this idea of the noble savage, which has something that played out in novels over the past. century, century and a half. Since Rousseau? Since Rousseau. And that was kind of obvious here with the way that the blacks have reasoned about their circumstances and are essentially the good guys, despite how they're treated by the rest of society. And then, of course, there's the white man's burden, which is kind of the other half of that coin, where Atticus is defending them and it is up to him to make sure that he stays of moral character to defend them. And then also, it's parodied almost by the way the missionary club deals with the Maroonas, the poor Maroonas in Africa, the solution to which is to make them Christians. So those are a couple of things that I noticed in the book. I also wanted to read one quick paragraph here. This was where Sheriff Tate was talking about the case that he was going to drop the case, that there wasn't going to be any further investigation, that Bob Buell died of an accidental falling on his knife. He says, to prevent a crime from being committed, which is exactly what he did. But maybe you'll say it's my duty to tell the town all about it and not hush it up. Know what'd happen then? All the ladies in makeup, including my wife, would be knocking on his door, bringing angel food cakes. To my way of thinking, Mr. Finch, taking the one man who's done you and this town a great service and dragging him with his shy ways into the limelight, to me, that's a sin. It's a sin, and I'm not about to have it on my head. If it was any other man, it'd be different. But not this man, Mr. Finch." He was referring, of course, to Boo Radley at the time.

58:44 Frank That's a great quote. I'm glad you brought that to us. And actually, my quote also mentions the word sin. It's really a quote about mockingbirds. I don't know if we If we talked enough about this idea of mockingbirds being innocents, but always being shot at by the young people and by the hunters, and I found this quote, I think, a great way to end. The quote is, mockingbirds don't do one thing but make music for us. They sing their hearts out for us. That's why it's a sin to kill a mockingbird. All right, readers, I think that's where we'll take, that's where we'll find an end for our conversation today. I want to thank you both for coming in and having this conversation with me.

59:24 Phil It's a pleasure, Frank.

59:25 Frank I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

59:27 Katie Sure did. Thanks for having us.

59:29 Frank I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Katie Porcile and Phil Setnick. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Grace Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.