00:07 Frank Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Anthony Mahramus. Elizabeth, Anthony, welcome.

00:42 Elizabeth Thanks, Frank. It's great to be back.

00:44 Frank Thank you. Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started on our conversation, let me give you a quick introduction to our novel. Wuthering Heights, the only novel written by Emily Bronte, is a classic of 19th century literature and is considered by many as one of the greatest romantic novels ever written. Set in Northern England at the Moorland farmhouse known as Wuthering Heights, it is the story of Catherine Earnshaw and the love that she shares with Heathcliff. Catherine and Heathcliff are brought together as children when her father brings the young foundling home following a trip to Liverpool. Meanwhile, Catherine's brother Hindley becomes jealous of the affections that his father is bestowing upon Heathcliff and seeks to undermine the young boy's position in the family. When their father dies, Hindley allows Heathcliff to stay on at Wuthering Heights, but only in the capacity as a servant. The relationship between Catherine and Heathcliff is a tumultuous one. While the two are deeply in love, Catherine will not allow herself to marry him due to his lowly status. The novel follows the lives of the Earnshaw family for many years, years of unfilled desire, betrayal, and ultimately bitter vengeance. Before we start our conversation, what kind of word is Wuthering and what does it mean, Elizabeth?

01:57 Elizabeth Wuthering is a local northern English moorland adjective used to describe the fierce and wild winds that blow during storms on the moors. It also describes the tragic story of Catherine and Heathcliff.

02:10 Frank And Anthony, that word is not the only odd thing about this book and its beginnings. I said it was the story of Catherine Earnshaw and the love that she shares with Heathcliff, but we don't start at that story. The novel's story starts many years later, and it takes time to get to that story.

02:26 Anthony Yeah, absolutely. There's sort of a frame on a frame story here. The opening chapters are a little strange. They may be deliberately confusing, but the beginning certainly works as an introduction to the world of the novel and all the complex relationships among the characters.

02:40 Frank I agree, and I think the opening chapters also serve as an introduction to the peculiar style of narration by which the story will be told. One of the most important aspects of the novel is its second and third-hand manner of narration. Nothing is ever related simply from the perspective of a single participant.

02:57 Elizabeth The story is revealed to us slowly and not always in a linear fashion. We learn most of the story through the diary that Lockwood keeps, and most of his story represents his written recollections of what he has learned from the testaments of others, whether he is transcribing what he recalls of Catherine's diary entry or recording his conversation with Nellie Dean. But Lockwood does not participate in the events he records.

03:22 Frank Because of the distance that this imposes between the reader and the story, it's extremely important to remember that nothing in the book is written from the perspective of an unbiased narrator. And it is often necessary to read between the lines in order to understand the events. Anthony, we've mentioned two characters already. Tell us about Lockwood.

03:40 Anthony Yes, yes, Lockwood. That's the only name we're ever given for him. He's a recent tenant at Thrushcross Grange. It's a tenant manor of Wuthering Heights Manor. So it's sort of a secondary home as part of the greater whole. He's a vain and somewhat shallow man. He frequently makes amusing mistakes. He assumes, for instance, that Heathcliff is a gentleman with a house full of servants, even though it is apparent to the reader that Heathcliff is a rough and cruel man with a house full of dogs.

04:07 Frank And Lockwood deals very clumsily with the inhabitants of Wuthering Heights. He finds himself at a loss when he witnesses the strange household's disregard for the social conventions that have always structured his world. As a narrator, his vanity and unfamiliarity with the story occasionally lead him to misunderstand events. And Elizabeth, what about Nellie Dean?

04:27 Elizabeth Nellie Dean, known formally as Ellen Dean, serves as the chief narrator of Wuthering Heights. A sensible, intelligent, and compassionate woman, she grew up essentially alongside Catherine Earnshaw and her brother Hindley, and is deeply involved in the story she tells. She has strong feelings for the characters in her story, and these feelings complicate her narration.

04:51 Frank And Anthony, as you mentioned, Lockwood's narration forms a frame around that of Nellie Dean's. He serves as an intermediary between Nellie and us, the reader. Elizabeth, as you said, Nellie Dean is knowledgeable about events, as she has participated in many of them firsthand. Yet, while this makes her more trustworthy in some ways, it also makes her more biased in other ways. She frequently glosses over her own role in the story's developments, particularly when she has behaved badly. All right, with those introductions, how does our novel start, Anthony?

05:22 Anthony So writing in his diary in 1801, Lockwood describes his first days as a tenant at Thrushcross Grange, an isolated manor in thinly populated Yorkshire. So he's already in the middle of nowhere. So he's writing in his diary. Shortly after arriving at the Grange, he pays a visit to his landlord, Mr. Heathcliff. He's a surly, sort of impenetrable man living in a manor called Wuthering Heights. During the visit, Heathcliff seems not to trust Lockwood and leaves him alone in a room with a group of snarling dogs. The dogs again. When Heathcliff returns, Lockwood is angry, but eventually warms towards his taciturn host, though he hardly feels that he has been welcomed at Wuthering Heights.

05:59 Elizabeth Not long after his first visit, Lockwood makes the four-mile walk to Wuthering Heights for a second visit, arriving just as a light snow begins to fall. He knocks, but no one lets him in, and Joseph, an old servant who speaks with a thick Yorkshire accent, calls out from the barn that Heathcliff is not in the house.

06:19 Anthony Now eventually, a rough-looking young man comes to let him in, and Lockwood goes into a sitting room, where he finds a beautiful girl seated beside a fire. Lockwood assumes she is Heathcliff's wife, the first of many misunderstandings of who's who. He tries to make conversation, but she responds rudely. When Heathcliff arrives, he corrects Lockwood. The young woman is Heathcliff's daughter-in-law, and the girl is the widow of Heathcliff's dead son. Now, Lockwood then assumes that the young man who let him in, well, that must be Heathcliff's son. Heathcliff corrects him again. The young man, Harriton Earnshaw, not his son.

06:52 Elizabeth The snowfall becomes a blizzard, and when Lockwood is ready to leave, he is forced to ask for a guide back to Thrushcross Grange, but no one will help him. He takes a lantern and says that he will find his own way, promising to return with the lantern in the morning. Joseph, seeing him make his way through the snow, assumes that he is stealing the lantern and looses the dogs on him. Pinned down by the dogs, Lockwood grows furious and begins cursing the inhabitants of the house. His anger brings on a nosebleed and he is forced to stay at Wuthering Heights. The housekeeper, Zilla, leads him to a bedroom.

07:30 Anthony Zilla takes Lockwood to an out-of-the-way room from which Heathcliff has forbidden all visitors. Uh-oh. He notices that someone has scratched words into the paint on the ledge by the bed. Three names are inscribed there repeatedly. Catherine Earnshaw, Catherine Linton, and Catherine Heathcliff. He also finds a diary written approximately 25 years earlier. Apparently, the diary belonged to Catherine Earnshaw, and Lockwood reads an entry that describes a day at Wuthering Heights shortly after her father died. Catherine and Heathcliff seem to have been very close.

08:02 Elizabeth Lockwood falls asleep and has nightmares. He wakes from the second nightmare when the cone from a fir branch begins tapping on his window. Still half asleep, he attempts to break off the branch by forcing his hand through the window glass. But instead of a branch, he feels a ghostly hand which seizes his own and a voice sobbing the name Catherine Linton demands to be let in. To free himself, Lockwood rubs the ghost's wrist on the broken glass until blood covers the bedsheets. The ghost releases him and Lockwood tries to cover the hole in the window with a pile of books. But the books begin to fall and he cries out in terror.

08:42 Frank You know, I found it interesting that of all the names that we saw written into the bedposts, the ghost chooses Catherine Lytton. Heathcliff rushes into the room, and Lockwood cries out that the room is haunted. Heathcliff curses him, and Lockwood flees from the room. There are no signs that a ghost was ever at the window. In the morning, Heathcliff treats his daughter-in-law cruelly. He later escorts Lockwood home, where the servants, who believe their master dead in the storm, receive him with joy. Lockwood, however, retreats into his study to escape human company.

09:12 Anthony But having done that, rejected human contact the day before, he becomes a little lonely. When his housekeeper, Nellie Dean, brings him his supper, he bids her sit and tell him the history of the people at Wuthering Heights. And boy, does she ever. She attempts to clarify the family relationships, explaining that young Catherine, whom Lockwood met at Wuthering Heights, we refer to her as Cathy, she's the daughter of Catherine, who was Nellie's first mistress at Wuthering Heights. So you got that? Cathy is Catherine's daughter. And then Harriton Earnshaw, that was the rough-looking young man we described, that's Cathy's cousin, the nephew of the first Catherine. Stay with me. The first Catherine was the daughter of Mr. Earnshaw, the late proprietor of Wuthering Heights. Now, Cathy is the last of the Lintons, and Harriton is the last of the Earnshaws. Nellie says that she grew up as a servant at Wuthering Heights alongside Catherine and her brother Hindley, Mr. Earnshaw's children.

10:11 Frank All right, readers, with that start and that brief family genealogy, we'll take a break here, and when we come back, we'll continue with Nellie Dean's story. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. When we left, we were getting some of the background story of Catherine and Heathcliff, as told to Lockwood by his housekeeper, Nellie Dean. Elizabeth, do you want to continue our narrative?

10:40 Elizabeth Nellie continues by telling the story of her early years at Wuthering Heights. When Catherine and Hindley were young children, Mr. Earnshaw took a trip to Liverpool and returned home with a scraggly orphan whom the Earnshaws christened Heathcliff. That's just his one name, both first and last name, just Heathcliff.

11:00 Frank Right, I think at one point we referred to him as Mr. Heathcliff, but I don't believe in the novel they ever actually refer to him as anything but simply Heathcliff.

11:08 Anthony Kind of helps that it's just one name. He's the one name guy.

11:11 Elizabeth Yeah. Mr. Earnshaw announces that Heathcliff will be raised as a member of the family. Both Catherine and Hindley resent Heathcliff at first, but then Catherine quickly grows to love him.

11:23 Anthony Catherine and Heathcliff, they become inseparable, and Hindley, who continues to treat Heathcliff cruelly, falls into disfavor with his family. That's, uh, you got the rough end there. He's the actual son, but he's jealous, of course. Mrs. Earnshaw continues to distrust Heathcliff, but Mr. Earnshaw comes to love the boy more than his own son. When Mrs. Earnshaw dies, only two years after Heathcliff's arrival, Wuthering Heights, Hindley is essentially left without an ally.

11:47 Elizabeth Time passes and Mr. Earnshaw grows frail and weak. Disgusted by the conflict between Heathcliff and Hindley, he sends Hindley away to college. The servant Joseph's fanatical religious beliefs appeal to Mr. Earnshaw as he nears the end of his life. And this old servant exerts more and more sway over his master. Soon, however, Mr. Earnshaw dies, and it is now Catherine and Heathcliff who turn to religion for comfort. They discuss the idea of heaven while awaiting the return of Hindley, who will now be in charge at Wuthering Heights.

12:21 Anthony Now Henley and his new wife, a frankly two-dimensional character named Frances, she returns to Wuthering Heights in time for Mr. Earnshaw's funeral. So that's Henley's return now, he's gonna take over and then we meet the wife. He will be the master. Correct. Now Henley immediately begins to take his revenge on Heathcliff, declaring that Heathcliff will no longer be allowed an education and instead will spend his days working in the fields like a common laborer. But for the most part, Catherine and Heathcliff are able to escape Henley's notice And when Heathcliff is free from his responsibilities, they go off on the moors together to play.

12:57 Elizabeth One evening, when Heathcliff and Catherine disappear, Hindley orders that the doors be bolted and that the children not be allowed into the house. Despite his charge, Nellie waits for them and receives a shock when Heathcliff returns alone. He tells her that he and Catherine made the trip to Thrushcross Grange to spy on and tease their young neighbors, Edgar and Isabella Linton. Before they could succeed in their mission, Skulker, the Linton's guard dog, took them by surprise and chased them, biting Catherine's ankle.

13:30 Anthony Unable to return home, Catherine was taken inside Thrushcross Grange by a servant. However, the Lintons, repelled by Heathcliff's rough appearance, this poor guy, forbade her playmate to stay with her. Poor kid. Yeah, right, right, right. Now the following day, Mr. Linton pays a visit to Wuthering Heights to explain matters to Hindley, and he upbraids the young man for his mismanagement of Catherine. After Mr. Linton leaves, The humiliated Hindley furiously tells Heathcliff that he may have no further contact with Catherine.

14:02 Elizabeth Catherine spends five weeks recuperating at the Grange. Mrs. Linton determines to transform the girl into a young lady and spends her time educating Catherine in manners and social graces. Catherine returns to Wuthering Heights at Christmastime wearing a lovely dress. Hindley says that Heathcliff may greet Catherine like the other servants, and when he does so, she says he is dirty in comparison with the Linton children, to whom she has grown accustomed.

14:33 Anthony Nice. Obviously, Heathcliff's feelings are wounded and he storms out of the room declaring that he will be as dirty as he likes. The Linton children come for dinner at Wuthering Heights the next day. Nellie helps Heathcliff wash himself and put on suitable clothes after the boy declares his intentions to be good. But Mrs. Linton has allowed Edgar and Isabella to attend under the condition that Heathcliff be kept away from them.

14:56 Elizabeth Accordingly, Hindley orders that Heathcliff be locked in the attic until the end of dinner, kind of like Cinderella. Yeah. Before the boy can be locked away, however, Edgar makes a comment about Heathcliff's hair, and Heathcliff angrily flings hot applesauce in his face. Catherine clearly appears unhappy with Hindley's treatment of Heathcliff, and after dinner, she goes up to see him. Nellie frees the boy and gives him some supper in the kitchen. Heathcliff confides to Nellie that he intends to seek revenge on Hindley.

15:29 Frank At this point, Nellie skips ahead a bit in her story to the summer of 1778, several months after the Linton's visit and 23 years before Lockwood's arrival at the Grange. Frances gives birth to a baby boy, Hairton, but she dies not long afterwards, apparently the strain of childbirth having aggravated her chronic consumption.

15:48 Anthony Hindley then assigns Nellie the task of raising the baby, sure, as he takes no interest in the child. Miserable at Frances' death, Hindley begins to drink excessively and behaves abusively towards his servants, especially towards Heathcliff, who takes great pleasure in Hindley's steady decline. Catherine continues to spend time with Edgar Linton, and she behaves like a proper lady while with him. However, when she's with that Heathcliff, she acts like she always has.

16:14 Elizabeth One afternoon, when Hindley is out of the house, Heathcliff declares that he will stay home from the fields and spend the day with Catherine. She tells him ruefully that Edgar and Isabella are planning to visit. When Heathcliff confronts her about the amount of time she spends with Edgar, she retorts that Heathcliff is ignorant and dull. At that moment, Edgar enters, without Isabella, and Heathcliff storms away.

16:39 Anthony Catherine asks Nellie to leave the room, but Nellie refuses, having been instructed by Hindley to act as Catherine's chaperone in Edgar's presence. Catherine pinches her and then slaps her, and when Harriton begins to cry, she shakes him. Edgar, appalled at Catherine's behavior, sure, attempts to restore order, and Catherine boxes his ears. Edgar is unable to cope with Catherine's unladylike temper and hurries out of the house. On his way out, however, he catches a last glimpse of Catherine through the window, lured by her beauty. He comes back inside.

17:10 Frank We always do, don't we?

17:11 Anthony You know what? Physical pain.

17:13 Elizabeth Here it begins. People having these unwise relationships with toxic people throughout the book.

17:21 Frank Well, they can only have relationships with toxic people because they're all toxic. That's right. Exactly.

17:26 Elizabeth That is true.

17:26 Anthony About five people on this hill.

17:28 Elizabeth Apparently they don't have a lot of choices. Nellie now leaves them alone and interrupts them only to tell them that Hindley has arrived home drunk and in a foul temper. When she next enters the room, she can tell that Catherine and Edgar have confessed their love for one another. Kind of weird after the recent events.

17:49 Anthony You know what? My ears still hurt. I love you.

17:52 Frank But you are beautiful. Yeah. That face.

17:54 Elizabeth Edgar hurries home to avoid Hindley and Catherine goes to her chamber. Nellie goes to hide little Hairton and takes the shot out of Hindley's gun, which he is fond of playing with in his drunken rages.

18:07 Frank Nellie is in the midst of hiding Hairton from Hindley when Hindley bolts in and seizes the boy. Stumbling drunkly, he accidentally drops Hairton over the banister. Fortunately, Heathcliff is there to catch him at the bottom of the stairs.

18:20 Elizabeth But when Heathcliff sees that Hindley was the one that dropped the baby, he regrets catching the baby because he did Hindley a favor.

18:31 Anthony Now, later that evening, Catherine seeks out Nellie in the kitchen and confides to her that Edgar has asked her to marry him and that she has accepted. Now, Nellie remarks, what about Heathcliff? I thought you were in love with him. And she says, Heathcliff, now that Hindley has cast him so low, he's a servant in the fields, he's too poor for me. I can't marry him. That would disgrace me. Now, unbeknownst to both women, Heathcliff was hiding in the kitchen and heard all of this.

18:58 Elizabeth However, Heathcliff silently withdraws in a rage of shame, humiliation, and despair, and thus he is not present to hear Catherine says that she loves him more deeply than anyone else in the world. She says that she and Heathcliff are such kindred spirits, they're essentially the same person. Nonetheless, she insists she must marry Edgar Linton instead.

19:22 Anthony That night, Heathcliff runs away from Wuthering Heights, missing the real key elements of what would have changed his life here. Catherine spends the night outdoors in the rain, sobbing and searching for Heathcliff, okay? She catches a fever and soon she is near death. This is an eventful night. The Lintons take her to Thrushcross Grange to recuperate and Catherine recovers. However, both Mr. and Mrs. Linton become infected and soon die. Wow. Yeah.

19:50 Frank That was fast.

19:51 Elizabeth Three years later, Catherine and Edgar marry. Nellie transfers over to Threshcross Grange to serve Catherine, leaving Hairton in the care of his drunken father and Joseph, the only servants now remaining at Wuthering Heights.

20:06 Anthony Lockwood becomes sick and, as he writes in his diary, spends four weeks in misery. Heathcliff pays him a visit, and afterward, Lockwood summons Nellie Dean and demands to know the rest of her story. Like, this guy's loving the gossip.

20:20 Elizabeth That's what I was gonna say, yeah.

20:21 Anthony He's like, mm, there's more tea. Nellie, get up here. How did Heathcliff, the oppressed and reviled outcast, make his fortune and acquire both Wuthering Heights and Thrushcross Grange?

20:33 Elizabeth Nellie says that she doesn't know how Heathcliff spent the three years that he was away, and that it was at this time that he acquired his wealth. But she agrees to continue with her tale. About six months after Catherine's marriage to Edgar Linton, Heathcliff returns home, surprising Nellie at Threshcross Grange. When he comes indoors, Catherine becomes almost giddy with happiness at the sight of him, and their obvious affection for one another makes Edgar uncomfortable and jealous. Heathcliff has grown into a polished, gentlemanly, and physically impressive man, though some hint of savagery remains in his eyes.

21:09 Anthony He announces that Henley has invited him to stay at Wuthering Heights. Now this surprises both Catherine and Nellie, but Heathcliff tells Catherine that when he sought Nellie at Wuthering Heights earlier that day, he came across Henley in a card game with his rough friends. Heathcliff joined them in the gambling, and because his reckless bids seemed to bespeak a great wealth, Henley excitedly invited him to return.

21:32 Frank Maybe that's how Heathcliff acquired his great wealth.

21:35 Anthony It's a good point. I mean, I think they're telling us that, yeah.

21:38 Frank With his reckless gambling.

21:40 Elizabeth But it must have paid off.

21:43 Frank Now that Heathcliff is back, Catherine and Isabella begin to visit Wuthering Heights quite often. and Heathcliff returns the favor by calling at the Grange. Isabella begins to fall in love with Heathcliff, who, despite his obvious love for Catherine, does nothing to discourage her sister-in-law's affections. Nellie suspects that he harbors wicked and vengeful motives and vows to watch him closely.

22:05 Elizabeth In fact, I think it is once Heathcliff learns that Isabella has feelings for him, that's when he starts pretending to have feelings for her.

22:14 Anthony Yeah, he's very calculating. He's like, okay, I can use this.

22:17 Elizabeth Yeah. The next day at the Grange, Nellie observes Heathcliff embracing Isabella. In the kitchen, Catherine demands that Heathcliff tell her his true feelings about Isabella. She offers to convince Edgar to permit the marriage if Heathcliff truly loves the woman. Heathcliff scorns this idea, however, declaring that Catherine has wronged him by marrying Edgar and that he intends to exact revenge. Nellie informs Edgar of the encounter occurring between Catherine and Heathcliff in the kitchen, and Edgar storms in and orders Heathcliff off of his property. When Heathcliff refuses to leave, Edgar summons his servants for help.

22:56 Anthony Catherine locks herself and the two men inside the kitchen and throws the key into the fire. forcing Edgar to confront Heathcliff without the help of additional men. Overcome with fear and shame, Edgar hides his face. Still, Catherine's taunts goad Edgar into striking Heathcliff a blow to the throat, after which Edgar exits through the garden. In terror of the larger and stronger Heathcliff, Edgar hurries to find help and Heathcliff, deciding that he cannot fight three armed servants, gets out of there.

23:23 Elizabeth In a rage, Edgar declares that Catherine must choose between Heathcliff and himself. Catherine refuses to speak to him, locking herself in a room and refusing to eat. Two days pass in this way and Edgar warns Isabella that if she pursues Heathcliff, he will cast her out of the Linton family.

23:41 Frank Apparently this is the same room where Lockwood will eventually spend his nightmarish night reading Catherine's diary and having that ghostly encounter.

23:49 Anthony Now at last, after a couple days, Catherine permits the servants to bring her food. Hysterical, she believes that she is dying and cannot understand why Edgar has not come to her. Why would he? It's hard to say. She rants about her childhood with Heathcliff on the moors and speaks obsessively about death. Nellie, worried that her mistress will catch a chill, and as we know, these chills can be deadly, she refuses to open the window.

24:14 Elizabeth Catherine manages to stumble to the window and force it open. From the window, she believes she can see Wuthering Heights. Catherine says that even though she will die, her spirit will never be at rest until she can be with Heathcliff. Edgar arrives and is shocked to find Catherine in such a weak condition. Nellie goes to fetch a doctor. The doctor professes himself cautiously optimistic for a successful recovery.

24:37 Anthony Now, despite Catherine warning Isabella about what type of guy Heathcliff is, that very night, Isabella and Heathcliff elope. Furious about this, Edgar declares that Isabella is now his sister, only in name. Yet he does not disown her, saying instead that she has disowned him.

24:53 Frank All right, readers, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll continue our story about Heathcliff and Isabella, Heathcliff and Catherine, and Heathcliff and just about everyone else. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. All right, readers, when we left, Heathcliff and Isabella Linton had eloped. Catherine was very ill, and Nellie continues to tell Lockwood the story of the happenings at Wuthering Heights and the Grange.

25:28 Elizabeth Edgar and Nellie spend two months nursing Catherine through her illness, and though she never entirely recovers, she learns that she has become pregnant. Six weeks after Isabella and Heathcliff's marriage, Isabella sends a letter to Edgar, begging his forgiveness. When Edgar ignores her pleas, she sends a letter to Nellie, describing her horrible experiences at Wuthering Heights. This is what you signed up for!

25:54 Anthony I tried to warn you. In her letter, she explains that Henley, Joseph, and Harriton have all treated her cruelly, and that Heathcliff declares that since he cannot punish Edgar for causing Catherine's illness, he will punish Isabella, his new bride, in his place.

26:10 Elizabeth Isabella also tells Nelly that Hindley has developed a mad obsession with Heathcliff, who has assumed the position of power at Wuthering Heights. Hindley hopes that somehow he will be able to obtain Heathcliff's vast fortune for himself, and he has shown Isabella the weapon with which he hopes to kill Heathcliff, a pistol with a knife attached to its barrel.

26:30 Anthony Nellie grants Isabella's request and goes to the manor. But Edgar continues to spurn his sister's appeals for forgiveness. When Nellie arrives, Heathcliff presses her for news of Catherine and asks if he may come see her. Nellie refuses to allow him to come to the Grange, however, and enraged, Heathcliff threatens that he will hold Nellie a prisoner at Wuthering Heights and go alone. Terrified by that possibility, Nellie agrees to carry a letter from Heathcliff to Catherine.

26:55 Elizabeth Four days after visiting Wuthering Heights, Nellie waits for Edgar to leave for church and then takes the opportunity to give Heathcliff's letter to the ailing Catherine. Catherine has become so weak that she cannot even hold the letter, but nearly as soon as Nellie tells her that it is from Heathcliff, Heathcliff himself enters the room.

27:15 Anthony Did someone say Heathcliff? Heathcliff and Catherine enter into a dramatic, highly charged conversation during which Catherine claims that both Heathcliff and Edgar have broken her heart. She says she cannot bear dying while Heathcliff remains alive and that she never wants to be apart from him. She begs his forgiveness. He says that he can forgive her for the pain she has caused him, but that he can never forgive her for the pain she has caused herself. He adds that she has killed herself through her behavior.

27:42 Elizabeth Edgar returns to the house, but Catherine pleads with Heathcliff not to leave. He promises to stay by her side. As Edgar hurries toward Catherine's room, Nellie screams and Catherine collapses. Heathcliff catches her and forces her into Edgar's arms as he enters the room, demanding that Edgar see to Catherine's needs before acting on his anger. Nellie hurries Heathcliff out of the room, promising to send him word about Catherine's condition in the morning. Heathcliff swears that he will stay in the garden, wanting to be near to her.

28:13 Anthony I love this, especially these real quick moving plot points. It's just such a proto soap opera. It's just like, he comes back. It really is. No, get out of here, Heathcliff. Who are you? What are you doing here? Yeah. Continuing that theme, at midnight, Catherine gives birth to her daughter, Cathy, two months prematurely, heightening the drama. She dies within two hours of giving birth. I don't think you can heighten the drama any further than that. When Nelly goes to tell Heathcliff what has happened, he seems to know already. He curses Catherine for the pain she has caused him, and then pleads with her spirit to haunt him for the rest of his life. She may take any form, he says, and even drive him mad as long as she stays with him.

28:49 Elizabeth Edgar keeps a vigil over Catherine's body. At night, Heathcliff lurks in the garden outside. At one point, Edgar leaves, and Nellie permits Heathcliff a moment alone with the body. Afterwards, Nellie finds that he has opened the locket around her neck and replaced a lock of Edgar's hair with a lock of his own. Nellie twines Edgar's lock around Heathcliff's and leaves them both in the locket.

29:15 Anthony Henley is invited to Catherine's funeral, but does not come, while Isabella is not invited at all. To the surprise of the villagers, Catherine is not buried in the Linton tomb, nor by the graves of her relatives. Instead, Edgar orders that she be buried in a corner of the churchyard overlooking the moors that she so loved. Nellie tells Lockwood that now, years later, Edgar lies buried beside her.

29:38 Elizabeth Not long after the funeral, Isabella arrives at Thrushcross Grange out of breath and laughing hysterically. She has come at a time when she knows Edgar will be asleep to ask Nellie for help. Isabella reports that the conflict between Hindley and Heathcliff has become violent.

29:55 Anthony She says Hindley tried to stay sober for Catherine's funeral, but he could not bear to go. Instead, he began drinking heavily in the morning. While Heathcliff kept a vigil over Catherine's grave, Hindley locked him out of the house and told Isabella that he planned to shoot him.

30:08 Frank Isabella warns Heathcliff about Hindley's plan, and when Hindley aimed his knife gun out the window at Heathcliff, the latter grabbed it and fired it back, wounding Hindley. Heathcliff forced his way in the window and beat Hindley severely. The next morning, Isabella reminded Hindley what Heathcliff had done to him the previous night. Hindley grew enraged, and the men began fighting again. Isabella fled to Thrushcross Grange, seeking a permanent refuge from Wuthering Heights.

30:34 Elizabeth Soon after her visit to Nellie, Isabella leaves for London, where she gives birth to Heathcliff's son, Linton. Isabella corresponds with Nellie throughout the following 12 years. Heathcliff learns of his wife's whereabouts and of his son's existence, but he doesn't pursue either of them. Isabella dies when Linton is 12 years old.

30:54 Anthony I hope we're keeping a body count here. Six months after Catherine's death, Hindley dies. Nellie returns to Wuthering Heights to see to the funeral arrangements and to bring young Harriton back to Threshcross Grange. She is shocked to learn that Hindley died deeply in debt and that Heathcliff, who had lent Hindley large amounts of money to supply his gambling addiction, now owns Wuthering Heights. The chess piece is moving into place.

31:18 Elizabeth Heathcliff does not allow Hairton to return to Threshcross Grange with Nellie, saying that he plans to raise him on his own. He also intimates that he plans to recover his son, Linton, at some point in the future. And so, Nellie tells Lockwood, Hairton, who should have lived as the finest gentleman in the area, is reduced to working for his keep at Wuthering Heights. A common, uneducated servant, he remains friendless and without hope.

31:44 Frank Of course, this is what Hindley had done to Heathcliff so many years before when he took over Wuthering Heights.

31:50 Elizabeth Exactly.

31:51 Anthony Son paying for the sins of the father.

31:53 Elizabeth Hindley isn't even around to see this.

31:56 Anthony Nope. Nope. Right.

31:57 Frank Again, Heathcliff has this sort of just… Sins of the father visited upon the son.

32:02 Anthony Now, Cathy, who again was Catherine's daughter that she gave birth to before passing away, Cathy grows up at Thrushcross Grange. And by the time she is 13, she's a beautiful, intelligent girl, but often strong-willed and temperamental. Her father, mindful of the tormented history of the neighboring manor, does not allow Cathy off the grounds of Thrustcross Grange, and she grows up without any knowledge of Wuthering Heights, Heathcliff, or Harriton. She longs to travel about and visit the fairy caves at Penniston Crags, but Edgar refuses her request.

32:35 Frank Edgar receives word one day, however, that Isabella is dying, and so he hurries to London to take charge of young Linton. While he is gone, Kathy is left in Nellie's care, and finally she's able to escape the confines of the Green.

32:48 Elizabeth She travels toward Penniston Crags, but stops at Wuthering Heights, where she meets Hairton and takes an instant liking to him. She and Hairton spend a delightful day playing near the crags. Nellie arrives in pursuit of her charge and tries to hurry her back to Thrushcross Grange, but Cathy refuses to go. Nellie tells Cathy that Hairton is not the son of the master of Wuthering Heights, a fact that makes the girl contemptuous of him. She also reveals that he is Cathy's cousin.

33:18 Frank So now we get the sins of the mother visited upon the daughter, right?

33:21 Anthony Kathy tries to deny this possibility, saying that her cousin is in London, that her father has gone to retrieve him there. Nellie, however, always, she's got the down low. Nellie, however, explains that a person can have more than one cousin.

33:35 Elizabeth And in fact, you can marry both of them.

33:38 Anthony You know, that's up to you.

33:39 Elizabeth Sorry, I'm skipping ahead.

33:43 Anthony At last, Nellie prevails upon her to leave, and Cathy agrees, not to mention the incident to her father, who might well terminate Nellie's employment in rage if he knew that she had let Cathy learn about Wuthering Heights.

33:56 Elizabeth And Cathy is excited to meet her cousin, even though he turns out to be a pale, weak, and very whiny young man. Not long after he arrives, Joseph appears, saying that Heathcliff is determined to take possession of his son. Edgar promises that he will bring Linton to Wuthering Heights the following day.

34:11 Anthony Nellie receives orders to escort the boy to the Heights in the morning. On the way, she tries to comfort Linton by telling him reassuring lies about his father, Heathcliff. When they arrive, however, Heathcliff does not even pretend to love his son. He calls Linton's mother a slut. He says that Linton is his property. Linton, please with Nellie, don't leave me here with this monster. But Nellie mounts her horse, rised away hurriedly. Because she, she's been a prisoner there. She's, she's done.

34:42 Elizabeth She's like, this is above my pay grade.

34:45 Frank Edgar said, I'll bring him tomorrow. And then he sends him with Nellie. Right.

34:49 Elizabeth Kathy despairs over her cousin's sudden departure from Threshcross Grange. Nellie tries to keep up with the news of young Linton quizzing the housekeeper Zilla at Wuthering Heights whenever she meets her in the nearby town of Gimmerton. She learns that Heathcliff loathes his sniveling son and cannot bear to be alone with him. She also learns that Linton continues to be frail and sickly.

35:13 Anthony One day, when Kathy is 16, she and Nellie are out bird hunting on the moors. Nellie loses sight of Kathy for a moment, then finds her conversing with Heathcliff and Harriton. Uh-oh. Kathy says that she thinks she has met Harriton before, and asks if Heathcliff is his father. Heathcliff says, uh, no, but that he does have a son back at his house, and he doesn't like him either. He invites Kathy and Nellie to pay a visit to Wuthering Heights to see the boy. Nellie, always suspicious of Heathcliff, disapproves of the idea, but Kathy, not realizing that this son is her cousin Linton, is curious to meet the boy, and Nellie cannot keep her from going.

35:49 Elizabeth At Wuthering Heights, Heathcliff tells Nellie that he hopes Kathy and his son will be married someday. For their part, the cousins do not recognize one another. They have changed much in three years, and because Linton is too sickly and self-pitying to show Kathy around the farm, she leaves with Hairton instead, all the while mocking the latter's illiteracy and lack of education. Heathcliff forces Linton to go after them.

36:15 Anthony At the Grange the next day, Cathy tells her father about her visit and demands to know why he has kept her relative secret. Well, Edgar tries to explain, and eventually Cathy comes to understand his disdain for Heathcliff. But although Edgar gently implores her not to have any contact with Linton, Cathy cannot resist exchanging letters with the boy covertly.

36:34 Frank Of course, eventually Nellie discovers the correspondence and, much to Cathy's dismay, destroys Linton's letters to her. She then sends a note to Wuthering Heights requesting that Linton desist in his part of the correspondence. However, she does not alert Edgar to the young people's relationship.

36:50 Elizabeth Edgar's health begins to fail, and as a result, he spends less time with Cathy. Nellie attempts in vain to fill the companionship role formerly played by the girl's father. One winter day, during a walk in the garden, Cathy climbs the wall and stretches for some fruit on a tree. In the process, her hat falls off her head and down to the other side of the wall. Nellie allows Cathy to climb down the wall to retrieve it, but once on the other side, Cathy is unable to get back over the wall by herself.

37:18 Anthony Nellie looks for the key to the gate, and suddenly Heathcliff appears, telling Kathy that it was cruel of her to break off her correspondence with Linton. He accuses her of toying with his son's affections, and he urges her to visit Linton while he is away the following week. He claims that Linton may be dying of a broken heart. Kathy believes him and convinces Nellie to take her to Wuthering Heights the next morning right away. Nellie assents in the hope that the sight of Linton will expose Heathcliff's lie.

37:45 Elizabeth The following morning, Kathy and Nellie ride in the rain to Wuthering Heights, where they find Linton engaged in his customary whining. He speaks to Kathy about the possibility of marriage. Annoyed, Kathy shoves his chair in a fit of temper. Linton begins to cough and says that Kathy has assaulted him and has injured his already fragile health. He fills Kathy with guilt and requests that she nurse him back to health herself. After Nellie and Kathy ride home, Nellie discovers that she has caught a cold from traveling in the rain.

38:20 Frank Of course, what else are you gonna do? Oh no.

38:23 Elizabeth Kathy nurses both her father and Nellie during the day, but by night she begins traveling in secret to be with Linton.

38:30 Anthony She can't let go. I guess he's literally the only guy in town. The only game in town. After Nellie recuperates, she notices Kathy's suspicious behavior and quickly discovers where she has been spending her evenings. Kathy tells Nellie the story of her visits to Wuthering Heights, including one incident in which Harriton proves to her that he can read a name inscribed above the manor's entrance. Go Harriton. It is his own name, carved by a distant ancestor who shared it. But Kathy asks if she can read the date, 1500, and he must confess he cannot. Kathy calls him a dunce. Enraged, Harriton interrupts her visit with Linton, bullying the weak young man and forcing him to go upstairs. In a later moment of contrition, he attempts to apologize for his behavior, but Kathy angrily ignores him and goes home.

39:16 Elizabeth When she returns to Wuthering Heights a few days later, Linton blames her for his humiliation. She leaves, but she returns two days later to tell him that she will never visit him again. Distressed, Linton asks for her forgiveness. After she has heard Kathy's story, Nellie reveals the girl's secret to Edgar. Edgar immediately forbids her from visiting Linton again, but he agrees to invite Linton to come to Threshcross Grange.

39:43 Anthony So at this point, Nellie interrupts the larger story to explain to Lockwood, remember him, to explain to Lockwood its chronology. The events she has just described happened the previous winter, only a little over a year ago. So we're catching up to the present.

39:57 Frank Right, just before Lockwood got there, I think.

39:59 Anthony Yes. Nellie says that the previous year, it never crossed her mind that she would entertain a stranger by telling him the story. But she wonders how long he will remain a stranger, speculating that he might fall in love with the beautiful young Kathy. Lockwood confesses, yeah, he might. But says he doubts his love would ever be requited. Besides, he says, these moors are not his home. He must return soon to the outside world. Still, he remains enraptured by the story, so he urges Nellie to continue. She obliges.

40:29 Elizabeth Young Kathy agrees to abide by her father's wishes and stops sneaking out to visit Linton. But Linton never visits the Grange either. He is very frail, as Nellie reminds Edgar. Edgar worries over his daughter's happiness and over the future of his estate. He says that if marrying Linton would make Kathy happy, he would allow it, despite the fact that it would ensure that Heathcliff would inherit Thrushcross Grange. Edgar's health continues to fail, as does Linton's. Eventually, Edgar agrees to allow Cathy to meet Linton, not at Wuthering Heights, but on the moors, not realizing that the young man is as close to death as he is himself.

41:09 Anthony And when Kathy and Nellie ride to their meeting with Linton, they do not find him in the agreed upon spot. He has not ventured far from Wuthering Heights. He appears frail and weak, sure, but he insists that his health is improving. The youth seems nervous and looks fearfully over his shoulder at the house. At the end of their visit, Kathy agrees to meet Linton again on the following Thursday. So on the way home, Kathy and Nellie worry over Linton's health, but they decide to wait until their next meeting before coming to any conclusions.

41:37 Elizabeth During the next week, Edgar's health grows consistently worse. Worried for her father, Kathy only reluctantly rides to her meeting with Linton on the moors. Nellie comes with her. The cousins talk and Linton seems even more nervous than usual. He reveals that his father is forcing him to court Kathy and that he is terrified of what Heathcliff will do if Kathy rejects him. Heathcliff arrives on the scene and questions Nellie about Edgar's health. He says that he worries that Linton will die before Edgar.

42:07 Anthony Heathcliff seems full of rage towards Linton, who is practically weeping with terror. Once he has Nellie and Kathy inside Wuthering Heights, Heathcliff locks them inside the house and refuses to allow them to leave until Kathy has married Linton. He allows Kathy to leave the bedroom in which they are locked, but he keeps Nellie in prison there for five days for Nellie. During this time, the only soul Nellie sees is Harriton, who is ordered to guard and attend to her.

42:31 Elizabeth At last, the housekeeper, Zilla, frees Nellie from her imprisonment, telling her that the villagers and Gimmerton have spread the news that both Nellie and Kathy have been lost in Black Horse Marsh. Nellie searches through the house until she finds Linton, who tells her that Kathy is locked away in another room. The two are now husband and wife. Linton gloats over this development, claiming that all of Kathy's possessions are now his as Edgar is dying quickly.

42:58 Anthony Fearing discovery by Heathcliff, Nellie hurries back to Thrushcross Grange. Here, she tells the dying Edgar that Cathy is safe and will soon be home. She sends a group of men to Wuthering Heights to retrieve Cathy, but they fail in their task. Edgar plans to change his will, placing Cathy's inheritance in the hands of trustees, and thus keeping it from Heathcliff. He summons Mr. Green, his lawyer, to the Grange. Nellie hears someone arriving and believes it to be Mr. Green, but it's Kathy. Thus, Edgar sees his daughter once more before he dies, believing that his daughter is happily married to Linton and knowing nothing about her desperate circumstances.

43:36 Elizabeth Shortly after Edgar's death, Mr. Green arrives and dismisses all of the servants except Nellie. He tries to have Edgar buried in the chapel, but Nellie insists that he obey Edgar's will, which states that he wishes to be buried in the churchyard next to his wife.

43:53 Anthony Heathcliff appears at Thrushcross Grange shortly after the funeral in order to take Cathy to her new home. He tells her that he has punished Linton for having helped her escape and says that she will have to work for her keep at Wuthering Heights. Cathy angrily retorts that she and Linton are in fact in love, despite Linton's bad temperedness, while Heathcliff has no one to love him.

44:12 Elizabeth As Kathy is packing her things, Nellie asks Heathcliff for Zilla's position at Wuthering Heights, desperate to remain with Kathy. But Heathcliff interrupts Nellie to tell her his astonishing deed of the day before. Oh yeah, this part really got me. Okay. While the sexton was digging Edgar's grave, Heathcliff had him remove the earth from his beloved Catherine's grave, and he opened her coffin to gaze upon her face, which he says is still recognizable. Heathcliff asserts that Catherine will not crumble to dust until he joins her in the ground, at which point they will share the transformation together.

44:50 Anthony Cool. Yeah, man.

44:53 Elizabeth Also, this is not the first time he has opened her grave.

44:57 Anthony Yeah, that's true. And, and it's, you know, and he has Kathy running around who bears a resemblance to Catherine, but he's like, no, I gotta, I gotta see the real thing. Nellie chastises him for disturbing the dead, as well she should, and Heathcliff tells her that Catherine's ghost has tormented him every night for the last 18 years.

45:14 Elizabeth Which he demanded.

45:15 Anthony Right, right. She listened. He explains that he has felt her presence without being able to reach her. As they leave, Kathy asks Nellie to visit her soon, but Heathcliff tells Nellie that she must never call at Wuthering Heights, noting that if he wishes to see her, he will come to the Grange.

45:30 Elizabeth Nellie has not seen Kathy since she left, and her only source of information about her is Zilla. Zilla says that Heathcliff refused to allow anyone at Wuthering Heights to be kind or helpful to Kathy after her arrival, and that Kathy tended to Linton by herself until the day he died. And he also refused to bring a doctor to help Linton. Since Linton's death, Kathy has remained aloof from Zilla and from Harriton, with whom she has been in constant conflict.

46:01 Frank Desperate to help her, Nellie tells Lockwood that she has taken a cottage herself and wants to bring Kathy to live with her, but she knows that Heathcliff will not allow it. The only thing that could save Kathy would be another marriage, says Nellie, but she does not have the power to bring about such a thing.

46:16 Anthony Writing in his diary, where all of Nellie's story has been recorded, Lockwood says that this is the end of Nellie's story and that he is finally recovering from his illness. He writes that he plans to ride out to Wuthering Heights to inform Heathcliff that he will spend the next six months in London and that Heathcliff may look for another tenant for the Grange. He's getting out of this. As well as he should. Yeah. He emphatically states that he has no desire to spend another winter with this strange company.

46:42 Elizabeth Lockwood, true to his word, travels to Wuthering Heights to end his tenancy at the Grange. He brings Cathy a note from Nellie. Hariton first appropriates the note, but when Cathy cries, he gives it back to her. He has been struggling to learn to read and to acquire an education. Meanwhile, Cathy has been starving for books as Heathcliff confiscated her collection. Cathy mocks Hariton's struggles to learn, angering him, but she admits that she does not want to hinder his education. Still, Harriton feels humiliated, and then he throws his books into the fire.

47:15 Frank That's the real crime in this novel, by the way.

47:17 Anthony Yeah, right. Well, Heathcliff returns, and on entering the house, he notes that Harriton has begun increasingly to resemble his Aunt Catherine, so much so that he can hardly bear to see him. Lockwood passes a cheerless meal with Heathcliff and Harriton, and then departs the manor. As he leaves, he considers what a bleak place it is, full of dreary people. Finally, somebody's saying it. He muses further that it would have been like a fairy tale for Kathy had she fallen in love with him and left Wuthering Heights for a more pleasant environment.

47:46 Elizabeth About six months later, Lockwood writes in his diary that he has traveled again to the vicinity of the moors. There, he tries to pay a visit to Nellie at Thrushcross Grange, but discovers that she has moved back to Wuthering Heights. He rides to the manor where he talks to Nellie and hears the news of the intervening mutts. Zilla has departed Wuthering Heights and Heathcliff has given the position to Nellie.

48:07 Anthony Kathy has admitted to Nellie that she feels guilty for having mocked Harriton's attempt to learn to read, which, come on. One day, Harriton accidentally shoots himself and is forced to remain indoors to recuperate. At first, he and Kathy quarrel, but they finally make up and agree to get along. To show her goodwill, Hathi gives Harriton a book, promising to teach him to read and never mock him again. Nellie says that the two young people have gradually grown to love and trust each other and that the day they are married will be her proudest day.

48:36 Elizabeth At breakfast, the morning after Kathy gives Hairton the book, she and Heathcliff become embroiled in an argument over her inheritance and her relationship with Hairton. Heathcliff seizes her and nearly strikes her, but looking into her face, he suddenly lets her go, apparently having seen something in her eyes that reminds him of her mother.

48:56 Frank Nellie speculates to Lockwood that so many reminders of the dead Catherine seem to have changed Heathcliff. In fact, he's confided to Nellie that he no longer has a desire to carry out his revenge on young Cathy and Hairton.

49:08 Anthony And I think that's interesting that he also just states that this has been my motivation this whole time is revenge. But now I don't even have the energy for that. And as time passes, Heathcliff becomes more and more solitary and begins to eat less and less, eventually taking only one meal a day. A few days after the incident at breakfast, he spends the entire night out walking and he returns in a strange, wildly ebullient mood. He tells Nelly that last night he stood on the threshold of hell, but now has reached sight of heaven. He refuses all food. He also insists that he be left alone. He wants to have Wuthering Heights to himself, he says. He seems to see an apparition before him and to communicate with it, though Nelly can see nothing.

49:50 Elizabeth Heathcliff's behavior becomes increasingly strange. He begins to murmur Catherine's name and insists that Nellie remember his burial wishes. Soon, Nellie finds him dead. She tells Lockwood that he has since been buried and that young Cathy and Hairton shall soon marry. They will wed on New Year's Day and move to Thrushcross Grange.

50:10 Anthony The young lovers now return to the house from outside, and Lockwood feels an overpowering desire to leave. He hurriedly exits through the kitchen, tossing a gold sovereign to Joseph on his way out.

50:20 Frank Joseph's the only one that never caught a cold and died. That's right. He's been the old servant for 45 years.

50:27 Anthony He's been here this whole time. He finds his way through the wild moors to the churchyard, where he discovers the graves of Edgar, Catherine, and Heathcliff. Although the villagers claim that they have seen Heathcliff's ghost wandering about in the company of a second spirit, Lockwood wonders how anyone could imagine unquiet slumbers for the persons that lie in such quiet earth.

50:46 Frank And readers, so ends the tale of Catherine in Heathcliff and Wuthering Heights. Great conversation, Elizabeth Anthony. Now, though, let's take a final break and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I had a conversation about Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte. Okay, Elizabeth, Anthony, before our break, we ended our story, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or perhaps a character or quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

51:35 Elizabeth Yeah, we didn't really talk too much about Joseph who was the ancient just nasty awful Servant that for some reason religious fanatic they kept high they kept employing him for some reason. No one likes him, but yeah, he was a religious fanatic and really like a Pharisee and a you know, hypocrite, but he was just really nasty and would, you know, if somebody was like singing a song, he would say, you're talking to the devil or something, you know, he just was insane.

52:05 Anthony If you don't mind, I'm glad you brought that up because actually one of my highlights literally has the word Pharisee, actually. I thought he's an important character though. He was quietly influential, especially with Mr. Earnshaw early on. Constantly present. Right. And some of the external criticism that I read about the book, apparently Joseph and just the writing of his accent, it reminded me of people talking about Huck Finn and not being able to really get that. It was sort of a hard mountain for people to climb. But anyway, the quote— Dialect, right. Dialect, yes. It says, Joseph the servant, you saw him, I dare say, up yonder. He was, and is yet most likely, the wearisome, most self-righteous Pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself and fling the curses to his neighbors.

52:49 Frank I like that phrase, ransacked the Bible. Right?

52:52 Anthony Kept the good parts for him. And yeah, so yeah, I agree. Joseph was always dancing around in the background there.

52:58 Frank Listeners, I'm actually going to steal an idea that our reader Anthony gave us. And I want to suggest to you, if you pick up this book to read it, create for yourself a little bit of a family genealogy. Keep track of the relationships between these various characters who seemingly all have the exact same first name. Make a little genealogy, a little family tree, and that will help you follow who's married to who, who's related to who. Well, they're all related to each other somehow or another. But how, right? How they're related, whether they're a cousin, a son, a daughter, a niece, or so forth. So Anthony, that was a great idea, and I really do want to share that with our listeners. All right, Anthony, Elizabeth, I do want to thank both of you for coming in and having this conversation with me today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

53:48 Elizabeth Thanks so much, Frank.

53:50 Frank Thanks to both of you. I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations.

Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram @novelconversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Anthony Mahramus. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.