"To The Lighthouse" by Virginia Woolf

Frank Lavallo:

Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book, and together, we summarize the story for you.

We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So, if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place.

This episode's conversation is about the novel To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf, and I'm joined by our Novel Conversation's readers, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith. Elizabeth, Katie, welcome.

Elizabeth Flood:

Thank you, Frank.

Katie Smith:

Thanks Frank. Glad to be here.

Frank Lavallo:

Glad to have you both here.

Before we get started, I want to give you a quick intro for To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf. Published in 1927, To the Lighthouse centers on the Ramsay family and their visits to the Isle of Skye in Scotland between 1910 and 1920.

Following and extending the tradition of modernist novels like Marcel Proust and James Joyce, the plot of To the Lighthouse is secondary to its philosophical introspection. The novel includes little dialogue and almost no direct action. Most of it is written as thoughts and observations.

To the Lighthouse is made up of three powerfully charged visions into the life of the Ramsay family, living in a summer house off the rocky coast of Scotland. There's maternal Mrs. Ramsay, the highbrow, Mr. Ramsay, their eight children, and assorted holiday guests.

From Mr. Ramsay's seemingly trivial postponement of a visit to a nearby lighthouse, Virginia Woolf examines tensions and allegiances and shows that the small joys and quiet tragedies of everyday life could go on forever. The novel recalls childhood emotions and highlights adult relationships.

Katie, Elizabeth, you both know we usually start our conversations by introducing the main characters, but today, I would like to start with the style and the structure of the novel.

As I mentioned, the novel’s divided into three sections; The Window, Time Passes, and The Lighthouse. And each segment is fragmented into stream of consciousness or interior monologue contribution from various narrators using their point of view.

Elizabeth Flood:

As you said, not much actual action in the first chapters. The novel includes little dialogue and almost no direct action. Most of it is written as thoughts and observations. The characters take walks, read a little, and talk to each other, and about each other a lot. And then there are lots of kids.

Frank Lavallo:

And guests and local friends and even a painter.

Katie Smith:

And we're introduced to the characters, but only briefly, almost impressionistic, just very brief glimpses as they walk and talk and interact.

Frank Lavallo:

That's a great point. And really, the first 19 chapters of the first section (The Window) are just that — a window into the thinking and emotions of the characters that we meet.

Elizabeth Flood:

From their thoughts about themselves and about each other.

Frank Lavallo:

Did this style of writing, this use of more interior thoughts make the novel easier or harder to read? Katie?

Katie Smith:

I really enjoy reading stream of consciousness. For me, it flows really easily and it's not too complicated.

Frank Lavallo:

So, it worked for you?

Katie Smith:

Mm-Hmm (affirmative).

Frank Lavallo:

Elizabeth, how about you?

Elizabeth Flood:

I wouldn't say it was difficult, although I think at some point, it could get a little bit tedious, but definitely an interesting style of writing.

Frank Lavallo:

Alright. Well, let's quickly talk about the setting of the novel. Obviously, there will be a lighthouse, but where are we, Katie?

Katie Smith:

We're in the Hebrides, which is a group of islands west of Scotland. Across the bay from their house stands a large lighthouse. Our main characters, Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay, bring their eight children to the summer home; six-year-old James Ramsay wants desperately to go to the lighthouse.

Frank Lavallo:

And Elizabeth, when are we?

Elizabeth Flood:

The first section, The Window opens just before the start of World War I.

Frank Lavallo:

Alright, well, with that quick start, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll introduce our characters and talk about them some as we continue to unravel To the Lighthouse.

You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back.

[Music Playing]

Welcome back. Alright, Katie, Elizabeth, when we left, we wanted to start introducing our characters. The first person we meet is Mrs. Ramsay. Who is she? And oh, by the way, what's her first name?

Elizabeth Flood:

We are never given a first name for either Mr. or Mrs. Ramsay.

A beautiful and loving woman, Mrs. Ramsay is a wonderful hostess who takes pride in making memorable experiences for the guests at the family summer home on the Isle of Skye.

Katie Smith:

With her husband and their eight children.

Elizabeth Flood:

Six-year-old James Ramsay, the youngest, wants desperately to go to the lighthouse, and Mrs. Ramsay tells him that they will go the next day if the weather permits.

Katie Smith:

But Mr. Ramsay tells him coldly that the weather looks to be foul. James resents his father and believes that he enjoys being cruel to James and his siblings.

Frank Lavallo:

It did feel a little cruel when he said, “No, you're not going.” But tell me a little bit about Mr. Ramsay. Elizabeth?

Elizabeth Flood:

He is a prominent metaphysical philosopher. Mr. Ramsay loves his family, but often acts like something of a tyrant. He tends to be selfish and harsh due to his persistent personal and professional anxieties.

Frank Lavallo:

Well, what's he anxious about?

Katie Smith:

More than anything, that his book is insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and that he will not be remembered by future generations.

Frank Lavallo:

Well, he says even a rock will outlive Shakespeare. He shouldn't be surprised that his work will be outlived.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yeah, he does seem to have an axe to grind with Shakespeare quite a bit (maybe a little jealous). Well, the Ramsays host a number of guests including the dour, Charles Tansley who admires Mr. Ramsay's work as a metaphysical philosopher.

Frank Lavallo:

Katie, can you describe Tansley briefly?

Katie Smith:

He is a young philosopher. He's a pupil of Mr. Ramsay who stays with the Ramsays on the Isle of Skye.

Elizabeth Flood:

Also, at the house is Lily Briscoe, a young painter who begins a portrait of Mrs. Ramsay. Mrs. Ramsay wants Lily to marry William Banks, an old friend of the Ramsays, but Lily resolves to remain single.

Frank Lavallo:

And who is William Banks?

Katie Smith:

He's a botanist and an old friend of the Ramsay's who stays on the Isle of Sky Banks. Thinks he’s a kind of mellow man whom Mrs. Ramsay hopes will marry Lily Briscoe, although he never marries her; Banks and Lily do remain close friends.

Frank Lavallo:

And Lily is a painter, but do we know anything more about her?

Elizabeth Flood:

Well, Lily is in her mid-thirties, which at the time, probably, was a bit unusual to be unmarried at that age. She has befriended the Ramsays on the Isle of Skye and rents a room in the village near William Banks. And like Mr. Ramsay, Lily is plagued by fears that her work lacks worth and long-term value.

Katie Smith:

And she begins a portrait of Mrs. Ramsay at the beginning of the novel, but has trouble finishing it.

Frank Lavallo:

Well, after lunch, Mrs. Ramsay invites Tansley to accompany her on an errand into town, and he accepts. On their way out, she stops to ask Augustus Carmichael, an elderly poet, also staying with the Ramsays, if he needs anything. But he responds that he does not.

On the way into town, Mrs. Ramsay tells Carmichael's story. Elizabeth, what is that little story?

Elizabeth Flood:

He was once a promising poet and intellectual, but he made an unfortunate marriage.

Katie Smith:

But Mrs. Ramsay's confidence flatters Tansley, and he rambles incessantly about his work.

Frank Lavallo:

Tansley has a bit of a crush on Mrs. Ramsay, doesn't he?

Katie Smith:

Who doesn't?

Frank Lavallo:

That's right, that's true. And we'll talk about a few of the other men who have crushes on her as well.

As they're taking their walk into town, the two of them pass a sign advertising a circus, and Mrs. Ramsay suggests that they all g. Hesitant though, Tansley explains to Mrs. Ramsay that having grown up in an impoverished family, he was never taken to a circus.

Mrs. Ramsay reflects that Tansley harbors a deep insecurity regarding his humble background, and that this insecurity causes much of his unpleasantness.

Elizabeth Flood:

Mrs. Ramsay now feels more kindly toward him, but his self-centered talk continues to bore her.

Katie Smith:

Tansley, however, thinks that Mrs. Ramsay is the most beautiful woman he has ever seen. Like most of the male guests, he is a little in love with her, and even the chance to carry her bag thrills him.

Elizabeth Flood:

Later, during the course of the afternoon, while she is with her son, James, Mr. Ramsay approaches his wife. He is petulant and needs reassurance. Recognizing his need to be assured of his genius, she tells him that Tansley considers him the greatest living philosopher.

Katie Smith:

Eventually, she restores his confidence, and he goes off to watch the children play cricket.

Frank Lavallo:

And all through this time, young James senses his father's presence and hates him. Discerning his father's need for sympathy, he wishes his father would leave him alone with his mother.

Elizabeth Flood:

Mrs. Ramsay returns to the story that she's reading to James. Inwardly, she reflects anxiously that people observing her interactions with Mr. Ramsay might infer that her husband depends on her excessively and think mistakenly that her contributions to the world surpass his.

Frank Lavallo:

And actually, kind of does. There's a lot of weak men in this story propped up by very strong women, but I think we'll get to that a little bit later.

This is a moment where this style of telling the story really works. We understand her feelings from her thoughts, her interior monologue with herself, and then Augustus Carmichael, the old poet, he shuffles by.

Katie Smith:

And she thinks Carmichael, he took opium.

Frank Lavallo:

Wait, wait, just like that, an opium addict?

Katie Smith:

Yes, and he ignores her, hurting her feelings and her pride. She realizes, however, that her kindness is petty because she expects to receive gratitude and admiration from those she treats with sympathy and generosity.

Frank Lavallo:

And I'll mention it just once again; we know that because we're privy to her thoughts. And then we get some thoughts from Bankes.

Elizabeth Flood:

William Bankes considers Mr. Ramsay's behavior and concludes that it is a pity that his old friend cannot act more conventionally. He suggests to Lily, who stands beside him, putting away her paint and brushes, that their host is something of a hypocrite.

Katie Smith:

But Lily disagrees with him. Though she finds Mr. Ramsay narrow and self-absorbed, she also observes the sincerity with which he seeks admiration. Lily is about to speak and criticize Mrs. Ramsay, but Bankes’s rapture of watching. Mrs. Ramsay silences her. As he stares at Mrs. Ramsay, it is obvious to Lily, that he is in love.

Frank Lavallo:

As we said, everyone loves Mrs. Ramsay. Tell me a little bit more about Bankes.

Elizabeth Flood:

Bankes who once enjoyed a close relationship with Mr. Ramsay, now, feels somewhat removed from him. He cannot understand why Mr. Ramsay needs so much attention and praise.

Katie Smith:

Meanwhile, she finishes reading James’s story, and the nursemaid takes him to bed. Mrs. Ramsay is certain that he is thinking of their thwarted trip to the lighthouse, and that he will remember not being able to go for the rest of his life

Elizabeth Flood:

From a distance, Mr. Ramsay sees her and notices her sadness and beauty. He wants to protect her, but hesitates, feeling helpless, and reflecting that his temper causes her grief. He resolves not to interrupt her, but soon enough, sensing his desire to protect her, Mrs. Ramsay calls after him, takes up her shawl and meets him on the lawn.

Frank Lavallo:

Just again, one more moment where it's Mrs. Ramsay who seems to have to take care of Mr. Ramsay. And then as fathers and mothers do while they walk together, they talk about their children.

Mrs. Ramsay brings up to Mr. Ramsay, her worries about their son, Jasper's proclivity for shooting birds, and her disagreement with Mr. Ramsay's high opinion of Charles Tansley. She complains about Tansley's bullying and excessive discussion of his dissertation.

Katie Smith:

But Mr. Ramsay counters that his dissertation is all that Tansley has in his life. He does add that he would disinherit his daughter Prue if she married Tansley. However, Mr. Ramsay mourns that the best and most productive period of his career is over. But he chastises himself for his sadness, thinking that his wife and his eight children are in their own way, a fine contribution to the poor little universe.

Elizabeth Flood:

Her husband in his moods amaze Mrs. Ramsay, who realizes that he believes that his books would've been better had he not had children. She wonders if he notices the ordinary things in life, such as the view or the flowers. Then Lily comes into view with William Bankes, and Mrs. Ramsay decides that the couple must marry.

Frank Lavallo:

And while all this is going on, mostly in Mrs. Ramsay's head, she also wonders about another match she's been working on. Tell me a little bit about Paul and Minta.

Elizabeth Flood:

Paul Rayley is a young friend of the Ramsay's who visits them on the Isle of Skye. Paul is a kind, impressionable, young man who follows Mrs. Ramsay's wishes in marrying Minta Doyle.

Katie Smith:

Minta Doyle is a flighty young woman who also visits at the Ramsay's on the Isle of Skye.

Frank Lavallo:

And how goes that match?

Elizabeth Flood:

Paul thinks to himself that this is the most difficult day of his life.

Frank Lavallo:

So, not well?

Elizabeth Flood:

No, not well, and we’ll circle back to them later on in the book.

Frank Lavallo:

And finally, for the evening, there's a dinner scene, and that's pretty much the final scene of our first section.

Elizabeth Flood:

Most of the characters are here, and the day moves from chaos to blissful, though momentary order.

Katie Smith:

It kind of starts as a disaster. Minta, Paul, Andrew, Nancy, they're all running late from the beach.

Frank Lavallo:

But as we continue to read this scene, a change comes over the group. As the candles are lit and the food's brought out, the guests come together against this chaos. And for the remainder of the dinner, at least, there's a bit of unity.

Elizabeth Flood:

Despite all the tensions and imperfections evident in the Ramsay household, such as Mr. Ramsay's sometimes ridiculous vanity, and Mrs. Ramsay's determination to counter the flaws in her own marriage by arranging marriages for her friends, the tone of The Window remains primarily bright and optimistic.

Katie Smith:

The pleasant beach, the lively children, and the Ramsay's generally loving marriage, gives us a feeling of possibility and potential. And many of the characters have happy prospects.

Paul and Minta anticipate their marriage, and Mrs. Ramsay comforts herself with her daughter Prue’s future marriage, as well as her son, Andrew’s accomplished career as a mathematician.

Frank Lavallo:

And then just as the first section, The Window, provided us a window, a look into the thoughts and thinking and lives of our characters, we start the second section of this book. And the section is just as clear; Time Passes, and the time does pass.

Elizabeth Flood:

It starts with one night, the darkness comes.

Katie Smith:

And one night becomes another night, and darkness floods the house, the furniture and the people seem to disappear completely. The wind creeps and doors and is the only movement. The air plays across objects of the house, wallpaper, books, flowers — it creeps up the stairs and continues on its way.

Elizabeth Flood:

And in the darkness of one night, at the end of chapter three, comes these lines.

Katie Smith:

“Mr. Ramsay stumbling across the passage one dark morning, stretched his arm out, but Mrs. Ramsay having died rather suddenly the night before, his arms, though stretched out, remained empty.”

Frank Lavallo:

And the novel continues and time continues to pass. The contents of the house are packed and stored. The winds enter and without the resistance of lives being lived, begins to nibble at their possessions.

As it moves across these things, the wind asks, “Will you fade? Will you perish?” The objects answer, “We remain,” and the house is peaceful.

Elizabeth Flood:

Only Mrs. McNab, the housekeeper disturbs the peace as she arrives to dust the bedrooms. Mrs. McNab makes her way through the house. She is old and weary, and hums the tune that bears little resemblance to the joyous song of 20 years earlier.

Katie Smith:

As she cleans the house, she wonders, how long will it all endure? Some pleasant memory occurs to the old woman, which makes her job more pleasant.

Frank Lavallo:

And time passes. It's spring again, but time passes.

Elizabeth Flood:

Prue Ramsay marries, and people comment on her great beauty. Summer approaches and Prue dies from an illness connected with childbirth. Flies and weeds make a home in the Ramsay summer house.

Frank Lavallo:

And to our listeners, it may sound abrupt that Prue marries and then dies in childbirth, but it's just that abrupt in our novel. As we're reading it, we learn Prue Ramsay's married, and then we quickly learn, Prue Ramsay is dead.

Katie Smith:

And similarly, Andrew Ramsay is killed in France during World War I. Augustus Carmichael publishes a volume of poetry during the war that greatly enhances his reputation.

Frank Lavallo:

And Mrs. McNab, the housekeeper, hearing a rumor that the family will never return, picks a bunch of flowers from the garden to take home with her.

The house is sinking quickly into disrepair. The books are moldy (oh, that hurts my heart). Mrs. McNab has little hope that the family will return or that the house will survive. And she thinks that keeping it up is just too much work for one old woman.

Elizabeth Flood:

During the night, only the beam of the lighthouse pierces the darkness of the house. At last, once the war is over, Mrs. McNab leads an effort to clean up the house, rescuing its objects from oblivion.

She and a woman named Mrs. Bast, battle the effects of time and eventually, after much labor get the house back in order. 10 years have passed.

Frank Lavallo:

10 years?

Elizabeth Flood:

Indeed, the Ramsays are expecting to come back to the house just as it was before.

Frank Lavallo:

But Elizabeth, before the Ramsays get back to the house, Lily Briscoe shows up.

Elizabeth Flood:

Lily arrives at the house on an evening in September.

Frank Lavallo:

I see this section, Time Passes, as a metaphor for the Ramsay family.

Katie Smith:

Right. It brings to the Ramsay's destruction as vast as that inflicted on Europe by World War I. When the Ramsays return to their summer home shaken, depleted, and unsure, they represent the post-war state of the entire continent.

Frank Lavallo:

Alright, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll talk about the final section of our novel, The Lighthouse. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, we'll be right back.

[Music Playing]

Welcome back. Alright, when we left 10 years had passed, and the final section of our novel begins, The Lighthouse.

In this third section, we're finally going to get to the lighthouse. Mr. Ramsay is going to the lighthouse with his son James and his daughter, Cam.

Elizabeth Flood:

It starts with Lily sitting at breakfast wondering what her feelings mean. Returning after 10 years now that Mrs. Ramsay is dead, she suddenly remembers a painting she had been working on years ago during her last day at the Ramsay's.

Katie Smith:

And she decides that she'll finish the painting now. She heads outside and sets up her easel on the lawn. Upon her arrival, the previous night, she was unable to assuage Mr. Ramsay's need for sympathy, and she fears his interference with her current project.

Frank Lavallo:

Right. She sets a clean canvas on the easel, but she cannot see the shapes or colors that surround her because she feels Mr. Ramsay bearing down on her. She thinks angrily that all Mr. Ramsay knows how to do is take, while all Mrs. Ramsay did was give.

Elizabeth Flood:

And Mr. Ramsay watches Lily, observing her to be shriveled slightly, but not unattractive. He asks if she has everything she needs, and she assures him that she does. Cam and James appear for the sojourn to the lighthouse. They are cold and unpleasant to their father.

Katie Smith:

And as the boat sails toward the lighthouse, both James and Cam feel their father's mounting anxiety and impatience. Mr. Ramsay mutters and speaks sharply to the McAllister's boy, a fisherman's son who is rowing his boat.

Bound together against what they perceive to be their father's tyranny, the children resolve to make the journey in silence. They secretly hope that the wind will never rise and that they will be forced to turn back.

Elizabeth Flood:

But as they sail further out, the sails pick up the wind and the boat speeds along. James steers the boat and mans the sail, knowing that his father will criticize him if he makes the slightest mistake.

Frank Lavallo:

And it's at this moment that we get some shifts in the youngster's thinking.

Katie Smith:

Mr. Ramsay talks to McAllister about a storm that sank a number of ships near the lighthouse on Christmas. Cam realizes that her father likes to hear stories of men having dangerous adventures, and thinks that he would've helped the rescue effort had he been on the island at the time.

She is proud of him, but also, out of loyalty to James, means to resist his oppressive behavior.

Elizabeth Flood:

And Cam continues in her thoughts, “They don't feel a thing there” thinking of the people who are still on the shore. Her mind moves and swirls and waves like the sea until the wind slows and the boat comes to a stop between the lighthouse and the shore.

Katie Smith:

Mr. Ramsay sits on the boat reading a book, and James waits with dread for the moment that his father will turn to him with some criticism.

James realizes that he now hates and wants to kill, not his father, but the moods that descend on his father. He likens the dark sarcasm that makes his father intolerable to a wheel that runs over the foot and crushes it. In other words, Mr. Ramsay is as much a victim of these spells of tyranny as James and Cam.

Frank Lavallo:

Oh, it sounds like our boy is growing up and maybe getting a little sense.

Elizabeth Flood:

He remembers his father telling him 10 years ago that he would not be able to go to the lighthouse. Then, the lighthouse was silvery and misty. Now, when he is much closer to it, it looks starker.

James is astonished at how little his present view of the scene resembles his former image of it. But he reflects that nothing is ever only one thing. Both images of the lighthouse are true. Again, perception is perspective.

Katie Smith:

He remembers his mother who left him sitting with the army and Navy stores catalog after Mr. Ramsay dismissed their initial trip to the lighthouse. Mrs. Ramsay remains a source of everlasting attraction to James for he believes she spoke the truth and said exactly what came into her head.

Elizabeth Flood:

Cam also feels liberated from her father's anger and her brother's expectations. She feels overjoyed at having escaped the burden of these things.

Frank Lavallo:

And back on shore, even Lily is having some changing thoughts.

Katie Smith:

Watching the sailboat approach the lighthouse, she contemplates distance as crucially important to one's understanding of other people. As Mr. Ramsay recedes into the horizon, he begins to seem to her a different person altogether.

Frank Lavallo:

And once again, Woolf forces us to weigh and judge their various perceptions. For them, a change in perspective is a change in thinking, a change in attitude.

Elizabeth Flood:

Similarly, Lily's understanding of Mrs. Ramsay has changed considerably since Mrs. Ramsay's death. Lily thinks about the people she once knew at this house; about Carmichael's poetry and about Charles Tansley.

Katie Smith:

She thinks that people interpret one another in ways that reflect their own needs. To see someone clearly and fully, she concludes, one would need more than 50 pairs of eyes.

Frank Lavallo:

And back on the boat. Mr. Ramsay's almost finished with his book. The sight of the lighthouse inspires James to recognize the profound loneliness that both he and his father feel.

Elizabeth Flood:

James lands the boat and Mr. Ramsay praises James’s sailing. Cam thinks that James has gotten what he has always wanted (his father's praise). But James unwilling to share his pleasure acts solen and indifferent.

Katie Smith:

What a teenager.

On the shore, Lily declares aloud that her painting is finished and notes that Mr. Ramsay must have reached the lighthouse by now. Carmichael rises up and looks at the sea agreeing that the sailboat must have reached the destination.

Elizabeth Flood:

Lily draws a final line on her painting and realizes that it is truly finished. She realizes that she does not care whether it will be hung in attics or destroyed for she has had her vision; an understanding that Mr. Ramsay never came to about his own work.

Frank Lavallo:

And with these changes in perspective, with this new wisdom that comes with age and experience and contemplation and distance, our story essentially, ends right there.

Alright, so now let's take a final break and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet.

Right now, you're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back.

[Music Playing]

And welcome back. Elizabeth, Katie, before our break, we ended our story. And now, I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or maybe a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes, I did want to talk about Mrs. Ramsay's view of marriage versus Lily Briscoe's view of marriage. Mrs. Ramsay really has a power of influencing other people, and she believes marriage is the best thing for everybody. And so, she influences other people with her matchmaking.

So, she is the reason that Paul proposes to Minta because that's what Mrs. Ramsay thinks is best.

Frank Lavallo:

Even if it's the worst day of his life.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes. And it ends up 10 years later when Lily goes to visit Paul and Minta that they are not happy together. So, perhaps, Mrs. Ramsay pushing Paul into marrying Minta was not the best thing for them. And additionally, unfortunately, Prue’s marriage was what caused her untimely death.

Frank Lavallo:

And isn't that really part of where this novel is coming from? I think Virginia Woolf wanted to discuss or wanted us to think about the changing roles of women, especially during this time. It was very traditional for a woman to get married at a very young age and have a lot of children.

Lily is changing that. She's a woman of her time now, and she doesn't necessarily feel that she has to get married to support a man, to have a man take care of her. The times they are, are changing. Katie, did you have something you wanted to share?

Katie Smith:

Well, in part three, when Lily is painting her portrait of Mrs. Ramsay, every character is described with a different color. And I thought that that was really interesting to bring in the action of painting into the descriptions that Woolf is placing in front of us.

Frank Lavallo:

I did like that technique.

Katie Smith:

But she never uses purple because in her first painting she did, Mrs. Ramsay was painted in purple.

Frank Lavallo:

Very good. I really like the character of Augustus Carmichael, the opium-using poet. First of all, he reads Virgil, Rome's greatest epic poet. And he serves to reinforce Mr. Ramsay's biggest fear: Fame is not only temporary and fleeting, but it's mercurial. It's unfair.”

He survives the war. His work is greatly enhanced. He gets the fame that Mr. Ramsay had craved. Elizabeth, did you have anything else?

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes, Mrs. Ramsay, towards the end of that first day, is reflecting on how she wishes that none of her children would grow any older. She wants to keep, especially her youngest children at the age they are right now forever.

And she reflects to herself that this is the happiest they will ever be in their lives. And Mr. Ramsay thinks she's being pessimistic, but it turns out that Mrs. Ramsay is right. Later on, as the children grow older, tragedy strikes; Andrew dies young, Prue dies young, she dies suddenly, and the whole family is really tragedy-stricken 10 years later.

Frank Lavallo:

Well, Elizabeth, do you think part of her not wanting her children to grow up is because she didn't want to lose her role in their lives? Their mother? Certainly as children get older, we still love our moms, but we don't need them as much. Is that part of her concern, do you think?

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes, I think so. I mean, her other children were already growing older, and she wasn't going to have any more little children after them, so I think she was really treasuring her last years of having really young children.

Frank Lavallo:

Good. Katie, did you have another one you wanted to share with us?

Katie Smith:

This is a quick moment that happened at the end of dinner in part one. Mr. Ramsay is reciting poetry to the table, and it's kind of the final moment of dinner. They kind of walk out on this note, on Mrs. Ramsay. But the poem they're reading is by Leonard Woolf, who's Virginia's husband.

Elizabeth Flood:

Oh, so Virginia did marry then?

Frank Lavallo:

Yes. And I believe she has a couple of children; two or three if I remember what I was reading at one point.

Katie Smith:

But I think a lot of this book is Virginia Woolf's speculation at a woman's role and what is marriage, and should she just be a mother and aloof and not book smart. Because obviously, Virginia Woolf doesn't feel that way, but then she still brings her husband into it. And I think that that's kind of saying that he is important to her life too.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yeah.

Frank Lavallo:

Well, I think throughout this whole novel, Virginia Woolf gives us that image of the women they use their strength to shore up to strengthen the men. It's the men who need the reassuring, it's the men who need the hugs, and it's the women's strength that they give to the men that props up these men.

I'm going to say the word again, that the men apparently need. Virginia Woolf is telling us the strength for these men came from their women. The women are the ones with the strength. I think she's making a clear point there for womanhood, if I can use that term.

Katie Smith:

Right. Mr. Ramsay goes to Lily in the last section for that sympathy that he's just dying for somebody to give him attention and care for him. And when Lily first showed up at the house in part three, I was wondering why did she go, who invited her? What purpose is she there for?

Elizabeth Flood:

And I think she might be wondering why she went too.

Katie Smith:

Right. But it's because Mr. Ramsay needs her.

Frank Lavallo:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Flood:

But she doesn't give him that sympathy.

Frank Lavallo:

Because again, for Virginia Woolf, Lily Briscoe is a woman of her time, and women's roles are changing.

Alright, I think that's a great way to end our discussion on the novel, To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf.

Elizabeth, Katie, I do want to thank both of you for coming in and having this conversation with me today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Elizabeth Flood:

We did. Thank you so much, Frank.

Katie Smith:

Thanks for having us, Frank.

Frank Lavallo:

I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations.

[Music Playing]

Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram or Twitter @novelconversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and anything else we've got in the works.

I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood, and Katie Smith. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Michael DeAloia and David Allen Moss.

I'm Frank Lavallo, and thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation, all your own.

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