A Front-Row Seat with the Sportswriters Who Sat There
Sit down with host Todd Jones and other sportswriters who knew the greatest athletes and coaches, and experienced first-hand some of the biggest sports moments in the past 50 years. They’ll share stories behind the stories -- some they’ve only told to each other.
Art Thiel: “It was a Grand Experiment in Mayhem.”
You can almost hear a crackling campfire as Art Thiel shares stories from his nearly 50 years of writing about sports. Art takes us deep into his home base of Seattle, off to foreign lands for the Olympics, and into a trashed casino after Mike Tyson chomped Evander Holyfield’s ear. Hear about a young Bill Walton, the volatile SuperSonics of George Karl, and how the 1995 Mariners saved baseball in Seattle. Art recalls his years of covering Ken Griffey Jr. and Lou Piniella with humor and insight. We learn about his unique vantage point from an NBA media seat created by a team owner who wanted him arrested. Oh, and there’s a story about beer, bread, and kangaroos. Seriously.
Thiel knows all the rings in the sports tree of the Pacific Northwest, where he has been a professional journalist since 1975, including 29 years as columnist at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. He covered numerous Olympics, Super Bowls, and World Series after joining the P-I in 1980 and serving as the Post-Intelligencer’s sports columnist from ’87 until the print edition died in 2009. Art continued writing for the paper’s website until 2010, when he left to become co-founder, president and columnist at Sportspress Northwest. He spent 12 years writing for SportsPressNW.com – which focused on Seattle’s pro teams and University of Washington sports – until that website stopped publishing in 2022. Art now writes for PostAlley.org, a Seattle-centric website.
Art’s career began at the Bellevue (Wash.) Journal-American after he graduated in 1975 with a communications degree at Pacific Lutheran University, where he played basketball. He then moved to The News Tribune in Tacoma, Washington, where he grew up, before becoming a mainstay at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer in 1980.
Thiel was also a well-known radio sports commentator on the Seattle NPR affiliate KPLU-FM, on ESPN 710 Seattle, and on KNKX. He wrote the definitive book about the Seattle Mariners, “Out of Left Field,” which became a regional bestseller. Art is also co-author of “Russel Wilson: Standing Tall” and co-author of “The Great Book of Seattle Sports Lists.”
You can follow him on X: @Art_Thiel
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Art Thiel edited transcript
PBA_Art Thiel
Speakers: Todd Jones & Art Thiel
Todd Jones (01:33):
Hello, Art, thanks for joining us on Press Box Access.
Art Thiel (01:41):
I'm thrilled and privileged to be here, Todd. Thanks for asking.
Todd Jones (02:11):
We're going to talk a lot of different stuff in sports writing, and we're going to talk about Seattle, obviously, where you've been an institution since oh, 1980. And we're going to go over the world, different events.
Todd Jones (02:29):
But I do want to ask you about another bar before we launch. That bar is a place out in the Australian Outback during the 2000 Sydney Olympics. Pray, tell. What was this all about?
Art Thiel (02:43):
It was a grand experiment in mayhem. And so, my accomplice in all this was Woody Paige. So-
Todd Jones (02:54):
Oh, look out.
Art Thiel (02:54):
... that tells you right there that this is going to lead to trouble. So, Woody and I and a few other folks who'd been to multiple Olympics, we always like to try to take a day trip somewhere that isn't anything sports related.
Art Thiel (03:14):
And so, Woody and I decided we would go to the Outback. We're already in Sydney, why not go somewhere just totally disconnected from the Olympics and just see what we find?
Art Thiel (03:27):
Our initial attraction was we found a person at the Sydney Media Center affiliated with the tourist bureau who said that she knows a ranger in the Outback who can call kangaroos.
Todd Jones (03:49):
What? We're already off the rails.
Art Thiel (03:53):
You haven't had kangaroos come up in any of your previous interviews, I bet.
Art Thiel (03:57):
So, we took a flight to Alice Springs, rented a car, and met this ranger at a rendezvous point a little ways out of town.
Art Thiel (04:08):
And he says, "How you doing, mates? Let's go." He jumps in his pickup, we're following the rental car. We go to some completely isolated, desolate place, sand and scrub trees and whatever, rolling hills. And we stop.
Art Thiel (04:26):
And he gets out and looks into the back of his pickup truck and pulls out two or three bags of Wonder Bread. And I look at Woody and I say, "This is going to be high adventure." And so, we're going to hear how somebody calls kangaroos.
Art Thiel (04:47):
So, he opens up the bags, he steps away from the truck, and he goes, "Here, roos. Here, roos." And all of a sudden ... all these kangaroos come from everywhere and nowhere because we didn't see one as we pulled up. And we realized there's no call, they just recognize his voice because he's done this before.
Todd Jones (05:17):
A real trick.
Art Thiel (05:19):
Right. So, not hard here. There was not any great science involved in this.
Art Thiel (05:23):
But it was not the first time we'd been made fools of though, because the next day we went on another adventure to a little town called Silverton in the Outback. And we knew it was way out there because on the way to Silverton, we passed this junkyard full of rusted out vehicles.
Art Thiel (05:50):
And as we drew closer, it was all the vehicles in the Mad Max movies out in the desert.
Todd Jones (05:59):
Really?
Art Thiel (05:59):
Yeah. It's a big chain link fence around it. But you could go in and see these things, but we could pretty much see them from the car. We said, "Let's carry on here." So, that's how far out we were was a Mad Max scene in those famous movies with Mel Gibson.
Todd Jones (06:16):
Well, I thought this involved a bar, but it involved kangaroos and Mad Max machines.
Art Thiel (06:20):
This is all setting up the bar. We get to the town of Silverton-
Todd Jones (06:23):
Oh, here we go, the bar. Okay, alright.
Art Thiel (06:24):
And the bar was actually very Western style with the saloon, wooden doors, open air. We go in and go to the bar and they size us up as tourists, and we said, "Beers for each."
Art Thiel (06:40):
And the bar maid is looking at us and recognizing we have two tourists here, says, "Well, mate, if you want a drink, you've got to join the club." I said, "What is the club?" She says, "I'll show you."
Art Thiel (06:58):
She reaches under the bar and she picks out a funnel and a small potato for each of us. And in order to join the club, you have to put the potato on your forehead, put the funnel in your belt, and then go like this and drop the potato into the funnel. That's how we joined the club.
Art Thiel (07:24):
And Woody and I are giving side eyes like, "What is this all about really?" So, we say, "Okay, we'll go up."
Art Thiel (07:33):
So, we put the potato on our head and we're trying to balance everything. And as we do that, the bar maid takes the two beers and pours it down the funnel, drowning our crotches in beers. And she says-
Todd Jones (07:52):
Deservedly so.
Art Thiel (07:52):
Yeah. And she says, "Welcome to the club, gents." And so, that was how we entered the club.
Art Thiel (07:59):
And then the little coda onto this story, besides us standing there in the hot Australian sun with wet crotches was we had to sign the logbook and put a little comment or whatever. We do that and she says, "You might want to check out, go back a few, three or four pages."
Art Thiel (08:21):
We flip back to the three or four pages, and there was this really obvious signature there. And I said, "Does that read Mick Jagger?" And she said, "You got it, mate." And I said, "Oh, anybody wrote that." Then she turns around and points to a photo at the back bar. It's her and Mick Jagger arm in arm.
Art Thiel (08:47):
So, it was altogether an astonishing and wonderful treat to get away from Sydney and get back there where the real Aussies live, and call you a mate, and dampen your crotch. You can't beat an Olympics that includes all those.
Todd Jones (09:06):
Sounds like sports writing to me.
Todd Jones (09:31):
Well, this is a great story to start off with, Art, because I think what it does show is the wild and woolly tales of sports writing back in the day when newspapers were flushed with money and they were sending scribes all over the place to write.
Todd Jones (09:46):
And I remember going on trips thinking, “What am I doing here? Like I can't believe they sent me. I'm some kid from Kentucky and I'm standing in Olympia, Greece where the first Olympics were actually held. And here I am to write about it.”
Todd Jones (10:01):
I know you were there too, right? At the shot-put competition at the 2004 Olympics.
Art Thiel (10:06):
Yeah. And I have told people since when they asked me, "Well, what is your favorite place to go? Or what was some physical place?" And I've always said that the 2004 Olympics shot-put was the most majestic and moving place I've ever been for a sports venue.
Art Thiel (10:23):
The original games begun in a small town called Olympia, which was about two hour bus ride north of Athens where the central games were. And writers could sign up for the bus ride, go up to Olympia and watch this event.
Art Thiel (10:46):
And what they did was they took the shot-put event out of the typical stadium and put it in the remains of the original Olympic stadium 3,000 years ago, because there's still a portion of the wall that's remaining with an arch.
Todd Jones (11:09):
Yeah. There's an arch. You could walk on underneath it, yeah.
Art Thiel (11:10):
Right. And what they did was they put it in this giant grass field surrounded by eucalyptus. So, we had the sensory feel on a warm but not hot day. And there were thousands of fans who walked from the bus stop through the eucalyptus forest to this field.
Art Thiel (11:32):
And all it was was a shot-put venue with about 2,000 bleacher stands, there was no other stadium. But this was the original games. There's still marble strips where the original athletes wrapped their toes around to start the race.
Art Thiel (11:55):
And so, all of this, to me as a sports fan and a lover of sports history, was absolutely an astonishing experience to be at a venue that was 3,000 years old, and they were still going to use it.
Art Thiel (12:11):
The athletes felt the same way. They were just blown away by the privilege of having to compete in this. And this was both men and women.
Art Thiel (12:18):
And so, we gathered media site near the bleachers and the event in the middle of the bleachers. And then the competition began, and there was a PA system, and they were announcing each of the competitors.
Art Thiel (12:35):
And after about three competitors, the public address announcer in very good English Greek accent, and says, "Ladies and gentlemen, you are at a Olympics. It is a sports event. It is not church. You are allowed to cheer."
Art Thiel (13:03):
And all of a sudden, all of us, including the athletes, erupted in laughter because we were so struck with the majesty, the history, the significance of this thing, and knowing what a privilege it was to be there that we treated it like church. No, it's a party.
Art Thiel (13:22):
So, everybody caught on. And it was the most wonderful venue that I've ever been to because all of that history, all the way there was retreated reverentially, and then it became a party. And I think everyone who was there would probably have a very similar recollection about this being a very special experience.
Todd Jones (16:11):
Well, that's what sports can do. And as a writer who got to travel and cover so many things, obviously we're going to talk a lot about the Pacific Northwest where you know everything, but it also took you all over the place.
Todd Jones (16:25):
It took you to Olympia and it took you to so many things. Super Bowls, World Series, NBA finals, golf majors. And it also took you to things that were just flat out crazy.
Todd Jones (16:35):
And I know a lot of writers have told me there was nothing like covering a major championship fight, especially in Las Vegas. And you had the privilege of that as well as going to Olympia.
Todd Jones (16:48):
But you were there on one certain night I wanted to ask you about. June 28th, 1997, the MGM Grand in Vegas. We have Mike Tyson versus Evander Holyfield, the rematch. And there was some boxing, and then there were some biting.
Todd Jones (17:06):
Was it like there, Art, to be ringside for one of the most notorious nights in boxing history?
Art Thiel (17:12):
It was the most astonishing event I've ever been to from a standpoint, not only of an absence of physical safety, but the things that went on after the fight was over, which was actually more compelling than the ear bite that Tyson laid on Holyfield that will never be forgotten by any sports fans who heard about it or seen it.
Art Thiel (17:38):
I was about 10 rows back in the press area watching the fight. And the announcement of the decision that Tyson was disqualified, and that Holyfield is a winner, caused a huge eruption within the arena. And people began throwing things from the top rows and the middle rows and coming down on the press table.
Art Thiel (18:07):
And so, we were in some immediate jeopardy. In front of us people were throwing chairs into the ring. And it was total chaos. There must have been a hundred people in the ring to protect the fighters, to separate the fighters and to protect everybody else who was being pelted by the fans.
Todd Jones (18:28):
And let's not forget you're trying to write on deadline.
Art Thiel (18:30):
Well, this was the one break I had. And in those days, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, where I worked, did not have a Sunday paper. This was Saturday night. So, I had some free time. And this was really kind of important in the story because everything kept devolving.
Art Thiel (18:50):
Once the decision was announced and they had enough security people around both fighters to escort them out of the ring and into the entryway towards the locker room. People kept throwing things.
Art Thiel (19:04):
And as Tyson passed through the opening, somebody about 20 or 30 feet above him from the grandstand threw some liquid, probably a beer, and splashed him. Tyson broke away from his security people and started climbing the wall because it was a fabric curtain.
Art Thiel (19:28):
And then he finally got up to the rail to go after the fan. And the security guys finally grabbed him by the ankles and told him, "Mike, you got to come down. You can't do this." And they managed to pull Tyson away from presumably killing the fan.
Art Thiel (19:48):
So, they got him back into the locker room, and then came the press conferences, which were almost as outrageous with everybody in semi hysterics with hyperbolic gestures and carrying on. And then it got weird, then it got weird.
Art Thiel (20:09):
I just fell into the company of a guy standing next to me who happened to be David Remnick, who's now, the editor of The New Yorker. And Remnick and I were just sort of exchanging holy cows, holy shit, all what was going on.
Art Thiel (20:29):
And we walked back from the press conferences, from the locker room through the mall that separates the locker room from the arena, because we left our gear back there.
Art Thiel (20:46):
And as we walk through the casino in front of us, which is adjacent to a shopping mall that connects the two spaces (and it's all Gucci and Versace and all these fancy clothes) suddenly explodes with hundreds of people running out of the casino to safety somewhere.
Art Thiel (21:09):
And Remnick and I pin ourselves back against a shopping mall window. The shops were all closed. These people blow by us and think what has happened in the casino? And then there's a pause. No one's moving.
Art Thiel (21:29):
And suddenly police show up with their guns out like this ... and they're following the crowd. And so, we can't get ourselves pinned back far enough into the wall. And we thought, "What is going on?"
Art Thiel (21:47):
And so, after the cops passed chasing the crowd, we decide to walk into the casino. And it's empty. Have you ever seen an empty casino? It doesn't exist. It's not possible.
Todd Jones (22:06):
No. I've seen an empty wallet, mine, but not an empty casino.
Art Thiel (22:11):
Strewn all over the floors were upended stools in front of slot machines, and popcorn, and cigarettes, and ashes. And it was just a total mess. And there was coins everywhere on the floor.
Art Thiel (22:24):
And Remnick and I are wandering in this empty casino, the only two people, and he finally says, "Hey, I got to go. I got a deadline."
Todd Jones (22:39):
That's what's so beautiful about this. You still have to think about how you're going to write.
Art Thiel (22:44):
Yeah. Where's your lead here? And so, he departed.
Art Thiel (22:50):
So, I had the casino to myself. So, I'm walking another, I don't know, maybe another 50, 60 feet. And I finally see somebody, and it's this casino worker, probably a croupier. And she's sitting on a chair trying to light her cigarette and doing this ... she's shaking.
Todd Jones (23:12):
So nervous.
Art Thiel (23:12):
And her hands are both shaking. And I come over to her and I say, "Hey, can you tell me what's going on? What happened?"
Art Thiel (23:23):
So, she proceeds to tell me the story about the second-floor high rollers area, where all of the privileged VIPs go to gamble.
Art Thiel (23:35):
Apparently, according to her, the Holyfield entourage and the Tyson entourage began arguing over the same things that everybody was arguing with in the country. Only one of them somehow smuggled in a gun and started firing.
Art Thiel (23:57):
And this is her story. And apparently it drifted down into the first floor. And I said, "But I can't believe this happened. Can you tell me anything about it?" And she points to a wall about 20 feet away, and she said, "They shot into that wall."
Art Thiel (24:24):
And so, I excused myself, and I'm looking around on the wall, and there's a bullet hole in the wall. And I knew it was a bullet hole because I could smell the sulfur.
Art Thiel (24:34):
And so, I spent the next several hours on the phone. This was '97, so we're not having Google as our friend. There wasn't any of that. And I had to make phone calls.
Art Thiel (24:53):
And long story short, I could not get anyone in the Las Vegas Police Department or the casinos to confirm anything, because they do not want future gamblers to ever think a gun could get into the premises of a casino.
Art Thiel (25:12):
So, I said, "Well, what were the noises that people heard? Because everybody heard gunshots." And they said, "It was somebody dropping a champagne bottle on marble." I said, "20 champagne bottles on marble?"
Art Thiel (25:34):
And then the next excuse came up that it was one of those metal stanchions with the ropes between them to segregate lines of people. Said somebody knocked over a stanchion onto marble.
Art Thiel (25:51):
And I realized that that ended the conversation. They weren't going to help me anymore. And so, I wrote about that, because that was the most astonishing aspect of this event, is it broke into a gunfight in the casino. And to this day, I don't think anybody who wasn't there will believe the story.
Art Thiel (26:16):
But there's one final twist on all of this. I did find somebody who did see some security camera footage of the second floor, and they said that all the tables were knocked over and all the chips were on the ground.
Art Thiel (26:38):
I said, "Well, what did you see there?" And the guy says, "Well, it was somebody that a lot of people knew was picking up the chips." I said, "Who was that?" And he says, "Gary Peyton."
Todd Jones (26:57):
Oh no, the Sonics card. Oh, now, you got a local angle in Seattle.
Art Thiel (27:05):
Well, it was amazing. Because I couldn't trust that independently, and I couldn't find Gary, I didn't write it. But I am willing to tell you now, that Gary made a profit on the evening, I think. But-
Todd Jones (27:21):
Did you ever ask Gary about that later?
Art Thiel (27:23):
No, he would been ... well, I think he was still playing then, but I never did catch up to him to ask about that, because maybe I'm going to save it for the book and see if Gary will confess to making a handsome profit on the evening. Anyway-
Todd Jones (27:44):
Well, I never heard Gary Peyton, the glove was picking up-
Art Thiel (27:48):
Now, you know why they call him the glove.
Todd Jones (27:50):
... casino chips. Exactly.
Art Thiel (27:51):
Didn't leave any prints, so.
Todd Jones (28:17):
Well, I'm glad you brought up Gary Peyton because I wanted to talk basketball with you during your career. It's been such a big part of your writing. You even played basketball too, right, in college?
Art Thiel (28:31):
I was slow and couldn't jump, but yes.
Todd Jones (28:35):
Well, yeah, you're the same as me, but you got a scholarship.
Art Thiel (28:39):
Well, I was a little taller. Maybe that was the advantage.
Todd Jones (28:43):
But you did, you played at Pacific Lutheran University.
Art Thiel (28:46):
Mm-Hmm (affirmative).
Todd Jones (28:46):
Where you graduated in 1975, and you started your journalism career out there in the Pacific Northwest. Right at the time when the NBA was just really, really, as we were talking about, going crazy with Blazermania.
Todd Jones (29:00):
In 1977, when the Trailblazers won the NBA title, you're a young writer at the time. I have seen a photo of you interviewing a young Bill Walton, and this is back when Walton was stuttering.
Art Thiel (29:15):
Right, yeah. That was-
Todd Jones (29:17):
Now, we can't shut him up, but this is how long ago this was. He was a stutterer at the time.
Art Thiel (29:23):
Yeah. And he was obviously, at that … I mean, he was such an iconoclast. He was a very liberal, very left wing, and very politicized guy. He was always talking about the typical left wings issues of corporate dominance and oppression and all of these things.
Art Thiel (29:48):
And he had the hair and the ponytail that went down between his shoulder blades.
Art Thiel (29:53):
But he fit in well with Portland and he fit in well with Seattle, and he certainly fit in well with the basketball world. And so, that photo came when he and I had a session alone.
Art Thiel (30:05):
And it was a fortunate little encounter because there was nobody else, I don't think Bill in those days liked crowds. One-on-one, he was great. The stutter was not evident.
Art Thiel (30:21):
And it was such a great experience because I was pretty young. And Bill was I think the best basketball player of that middle '70s era and certainly led Blazers to a championship. But that-
Todd Jones (30:38):
Why do you think that, Art? Why do you think he was the best at that time?
Art Thiel (30:40):
Because he had such command of the game as a center, you just don't see that very often. And the thing about it was that, at least in my view, when he had the ball in his hands … it's a whole lot like Jokic now, for Denver.
Art Thiel (31:02):
He had a great command of the floor. He had a sense about where every player was going to be in a couple of strides and was able to play high post, low post. There wasn't a three-point line yet, but he could square up and shoot an 18 footer without a problem.
Art Thiel (31:24):
And he was so quick and shrewd about how he manipulated himself. It was just an astonishing thing.
Art Thiel (31:33):
I'm afraid that kind of center, it seemed like, was lost to history until Jokic has come along and sort of reintroduced what a big man can do and when he is not confined to a stereotype low post. And Bill was just way ahead.
Art Thiel (31:54):
And people think that Jokic is we've never seen this before. And with the exception of the three-point shot we did see it before. It was Bill Walton. And I'm just so sorry that he had what turned out to be 46 separate orthopedic operations to fix-
Todd Jones (32:13):
Oh man, that's just incredible.
Art Thiel (32:14):
Yeah. Fix his feet, his hips, his knees. And yet now, that he's had a second life, a new career as a very colorful cantankerous and irrepressible broadcaster, he's the guy that I think is such a throwback. People are kind of remembering his career or looking up the video and developing a fresh appreciation about it.
Art Thiel (32:46):
But he was one of one in terms of middle '70s basketball. And I think if his body had held up, he would be right there with Wilt, Bill Russell as the best big man ever.
Todd Jones (36:07):
Well, alright, so, you got Walton in '77 with those Blazers that just ignited the whole Pacific Northwest. And then right around the same time you move over to Seattle in 1980, and that's a year after the Sonics won the NBA championship.
Todd Jones (36:22):
So, for you as a young writer and who played basketball in college, that had to be really special. What kind of memories do you have as a journalist in that era of the NBA when Portland and Seattle were at the center of the basketball universe?
Art Thiel (36:39):
Right. It was a really intense competitive relationship. And Lenny Wilkens was the coach of the Sonics and the title year. Jack Ramsay coached the Blazers then.
Art Thiel (36:50):
The two of them had a lot of mutual respect, but it was tense between the Blazers, the Sonics. And each had had an opportunity for a title. So, everybody thought this was going to continue. Well, no.
Art Thiel (37:06):
The 1980 Sonics fell apart.
Art Thiel (38:02):
And so, there was a doldrums until the early '90s when George Karl was hired. Gary Peyton was drafted, and Shawn Kemp was drafted, and then the lid blew off the town.
Todd Jones (38:19):
At the old Key Arena. Those were some rocking days back then.
Todd Jones (38:29):
They had the best record in the NBA one year. They set a franchise record the next year. Well, like they were like 64 and 18, but they just couldn't quite get it done in the playoffs. What was that team like to be around as a journalist?
Art Thiel (38:48):
It was so much fun. It was the most fun I've ever had covering a team because it was a crisis every day.
Art Thiel (39:02):
There was always some controversy, there was always some drama backstage and tension between everything, because George Karl, which I think he is a wonderful coach, but he is also extraordinarily neurotic.
Art Thiel (39:21):
And I remember talking to him, it was at the Sonics practice facility one day. He walked out about the same time I did, and I had written something he didn't like. And so, we started hashing it out on the curb.
Art Thiel (39:37):
And I noticed that from the second-floor windows of the practice facility with level or blinds, there were people opening the blinds, looking out on the conversation between George and I thinking, “This is going to come to blows and we're going to have a terrible cover story on A1 of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, ‘Coach hits sportswriter.’"
Art Thiel (40:00):
It didn't quite get there, but I do remember talking to George and I said, "George, I'm going to violate a protocol here in the journalism, and I want to offer you a thought and you can do with it what you want.”
Art Thiel (40:18):
“Stop your newspaper subscriptions, turn off the radio, do not watch TV. All of these media distractions are undercutting your attention span. Just concentrate on coaching the guys."
Todd Jones (40:41):
How did he react?
Art Thiel (40:42):
He looked at me and he took a deep breath, and he said, "I can't do it." He had to know what everybody was thinking and saying.
Art Thiel (40:51):
And I'll never forget it because he was trying to be angry, but he all of a sudden had this kind of self-awareness, and he shared it with me. And as startled as I eventually found it kind of endearing.
Art Thiel (41:12):
Because the other side of George at that time was so volatile and it was such tension between him and Gary Peyton and really Shawn Kemp. And there was other guys who were solid salt of the earth type guys, like Detlef Schrempf, and Sam Perkins, Hersey Hawkins. And they were all great personalities, but the tension was just so remarkable.
Art Thiel (41:44):
I asked one of George's top assistants at the time, Dwane Casey, who's gone on to be a head coach around the league. And I really respected the guy. And I said, "I got to ask you, Dwane, how is it that George and Gary can work it out to get this craziness to the NBA finals?"
Art Thiel (42:14):
And Casey big grin starts laughing, says, "I'll tell you." He said, "Gary thinks George is crazy enough to kill him." And he laughed, and he walked away.
Todd Jones (42:42):
Oh, they did get to the finals too in '96. I mean, they lost in six games to the Jordan Bulls. So, they almost got over the hump, they just couldn't quite do it.
Art Thiel (42:52):
Yeah. And I think a part of this was this dramatic tension, because I think there was a four or five-year period where the Sonics averaged 60 wins a season over that time.
Todd Jones (43:02):
Yeah. They were 63 in 19 best record in the league in '93, '94. And then they lost in the first round.
Art Thiel (43:09):
First number one seed to lose to a number eight seed. Dikembe Mutombo disrupted them. But that's the kind of tightrope the Sonics walked under George Karl. There was just so much craziness going on.
Art Thiel (43:26):
And there was an episode at one of the playoff games, I think, and it was '94, might've been '95 where Big Paper Daddy ... God, I'm forgetting his first name. Pierce. Got an argument with Gary on the floor before halftime.
Art Thiel (43:54):
And according to reliable sources who were eyewitnesses, Pierce pulled a gun on Gary in the locker room.
Todd Jones (44:02):
Oh, come on. Well, after the casino story you told, I'm starting to rethink this.
Art Thiel (44:09):
We're going deep here. Nothing ever came of that. And Ricky Pierce, there we go. Ricky Pierce and Gary patched it up. They went on to success together, and that's just how they rolled.
Todd Jones (44:26):
It was a crazy train. It just was like nonstop, something going on. I mean, didn't the Sonics owner, Barry Ackerley, didn't he once ... there was something about he was so mad at you that he wanted to get you like arrested or something, right?
Art Thiel (44:41):
Yes, he did. Like I told you, it went all the way up to the owner.
Art Thiel (44:44):
I'd written in the same era, late '90s, there was already discussion about replacing the Kingdome, upgrading the Key Arena, which had already been upgraded 10 years earlier. Or no, I'm sorry, it was needing upgrades.
Art Thiel (45:04):
And the owner, Barry Ackerley, who made his money with billboards throughout Seattle, he wanted a new facility and he wanted the city to pay for it. He wanted it on property he owned that was right next to the Kingdome in South Seattle.
Art Thiel (45:26):
And I thought the proposal, in many ways, was sort of dubious, but the taxpayer was going to get stuck with the bill. And I wrote my skepticism, and I said in a column, "I'd rather sleep in a bed of broken light bulbs and make a deal with Barry Ackerley."
Todd Jones (45:49):
That's a pretty good line.
Art Thiel (45:51):
Well, I thought it was until I found out that when that appeared in the paper, Ackerley had his entire family in town for a wedding of his daughter. So, there were people coming up-
Todd Jones (46:06):
Maximum exposure.
Art Thiel (46:07):
So, they were coming up to Barry, "Hey, what's this mean man saying in the paper? What's the deal here?"
Art Thiel (46:13):
So, I didn't know about the wedding until a long time later, but I did find out was that Barry sought revenge by planning to have me arrested at the NBA draft, which was going to be held in a downtown Seattle ballroom at that time. They were going to gather the media and fans and big draft day party kind of thing.
Todd Jones (46:43):
What was he going to have you arrested for?
Art Thiel (46:47):
Well, according to the Seattle beat cop who was in charge of Sonic security that I just got to know real casually, he called me up and told me what the plan was.
Art Thiel (47:02):
He said that they were going to have a public area with fans and media, and they were going to have a private area where there was just going to be only media, and you had to show your credential to get into this curtained off room in this hotel ballroom.
Art Thiel (47:18):
And as soon as I was to step off from the public space to the private space, Barry was going to have me arrested for trespassing.
Todd Jones (47:31):
I thought it was going to be crimes against journalism.
Art Thiel (47:34):
Well, that case was still pending, so don't encourage anybody. You might be on the jury.
Art Thiel (47:41):
And so, the cop just wanted to avoid a scene. And I said, "Well, thank you very much."
Art Thiel (47:52):
And so, I went to tell my boss, "Hey, I found this out. I could be in jail tomorrow at the draft." And my boss started laughing and he said, "Hey, take a toothbrush. It'll be good for you."
Todd Jones (48:17):
"They've got good Wi-Fi in there. Can you file us a column?"
Art Thiel (48:20):
Well, '97, all I needed was electricity, I didn't need Wi-Fi.
Todd Jones (48:23):
That's right.
Art Thiel (48:26):
So, I didn't say anything to anybody because I didn't really think this was going to happen. But the day of the NBA draft, I was approached by the panicky PR director and said, "Art, I think you know what's going to happen here." And I said, "Maybe, maybe not."
Art Thiel (48:47):
And he said, "Look, we don't want this to happen. We can't deal with this potential embarrassment to have a sportswriter arrested."
Art Thiel (48:58):
So, he said, "Anybody you want, the coach, the general manager, the scouts, the players, we're going to bring them to wherever you're sitting in this public area." And I said, "I don't want to be treated any differently." And he said, "Please, it's my job."
Art Thiel (49:22):
So, I kind of realized there was going to be collateral damage in this thing beyond me having to spend a night with a toothbrush in the jail. And so, I said, "Okay, I'll go along with this." And so, this never got public.
Art Thiel (49:37):
Where it got public was the following fall when media credentials for the season were issued by each team for NBA rules. So, I tried to get my season credentials early, but they said, "Well, there's a hangup, Art, we can't do that yet, and wait till the game. We'll hand them out to you at the game."
Todd Jones (50:09):
I smell a rat.
Art Thiel (50:11):
Yes. Well, I showed up with my colleague, rival, and friend, Steve Kelley of The Seattle Times and-
Todd Jones (50:19):
Great writer. Yep.
Art Thiel (50:20):
And so, we didn't walk in together, but we were there at the same time when the PR guy for the Sonics at the time said, "Well, guys, your seats are a little different." "Oh yeah. Where are they?" "Well, they're at the top of the catwalk over the center of the floor, 120 feet above the court side." I said, "Are you kidding me?"
Art Thiel (50:49):
He said, "Well, look, just for one game. Can you just do this for one game?" So, I said, "Well." And Steve and I looked at each other, we both shrugged and said, "Okay, one game, what the heck?"
Art Thiel (51:02):
So, we have to walk up to the top of the grandstand and then walk on a catwalk to the center court, because that's where the scoreboard over the state is supported.
Todd Jones (51:18):
You and Steve are walking across the catwalk, up by the roof.
Art Thiel (51:20):
Yeah. And there's a three by six table with two chairs there with our name scrawled on a piece of paper.
Todd Jones (51:29):
Did you actually sit there the entire game?
Art Thiel (51:30):
We did because it actually was a view that neither of us had had. Neither of us was scared of heights, and we said, "This is going to be a pretty good story." And so, game's over, we do our thing. And we didn't write anything about it because we were begged again, not to say anything.
Art Thiel (51:52):
And long story short, this went back to the NBA front office in New York, and Ackerley was trying to say, "It's my building and it's my team. I can decide who can come in."
Art Thiel (52:12):
And the NBA changes bylaws on the spot to say that no media member can be denied the customary courtesies, including seating because of something the media member may have written or broadcast.
Art Thiel (52:38):
And I was told, and I don't have any evidence, but Brian McIntyre would probably back it up, he said, "In the NBA bylaws, the operational manual, there is the Art Thiel Rule."
Art Thiel (52:52):
You've heard of the Larry Bird Rule that Larry Bird writes? Well, I was deeply honored that I might have a rule named after me.
Art Thiel (53:04):
So, anyway, I got my season credentials, I got the normal seats. David Stern said, "Barry, this is not a fight that's worth even bothering with, so stop it."
Todd Jones (53:18):
Well, what's funny is now, they do have the media sitting up by the catwalk.
Art Thiel (53:22):
Yeah. Well, yeah, as it turned out, I was just a man ahead of my time, I guess, because yeah, there's no floor seating, there's no any of those things anymore. And if you can just get in the building because they can sell your seat for $5,000 a game.
Art Thiel (53:39):
So, yeah, it's a big change. But it was a kind of a hilarious moment that I'm sure Barry Ackerley, bless his soul, not with us anymore, but I'm sure he remembers it well.
Todd Jones (53:55):
And I'm sure our listeners will too. That's a tremendous story.
Todd Jones (54:01):
Well, those were crazy days back then with the Sonics. And they left Seattle and they head over to Oklahoma City after the 2008 season ended. And there was another team in Seattle that almost left. And that's the Mariners.
Todd Jones (54:22):
And I wanted to ask you about this, especially one particular season. In 1995, they were having a typical Seattle season. They had never won a division. They'd only had like two winning seasons since the birth of the franchise in '77.
Todd Jones (54:41):
Griffey was hurt. Ken Griffey Jr. had broken his wrist. He missed like 73 games or something.
Todd Jones (54:48):
And then out of the blue, they go on a run at a time when the talk was they might leave town. Now, Art, you went back and you wrote the definitive book about that season, Out of Left Field: How the Mariners Made Baseball Fly in Seattle.
Todd Jones (55:04):
As a writer, a journalist who was there every day, what was it like the Chronicle that magic run that Seattle Mariners went on in 1995?
Art Thiel (55:16):
Well, it was incredibly tense because every game had a significance well beyond the outcome or the impact on the pennant race.
Art Thiel (55:29):
The future of the franchise was at stake because the Mariner ownership had made clear that they had to have a new ballpark to replace the Kingdome because in 1994, the Orioles debuted the park of Camden Yards, that became the template for a whole new generation of ballparks.
Art Thiel (55:59):
And the ownership wanted that. This group bought the team in '92 and realized that the only way to make this team financially viable is with a similar park.
Art Thiel (56:11):
So, they arranged to have a measure put on the ballot in September of '95 that would increase the King County sales tax by some small percentage to fund the building of a baseball specific park that eventually became then Safeco Field, now, T-Mobile Park.
Art Thiel (56:33):
The building was a great success, but it was very controversial at the time because Seattle fans were notoriously tight about giving tax dollars for pro sports.
Art Thiel (56:45):
And so, that became clear that the Mariners in '95 had to have some on-field success to build some momentum, because they were the slowest team to reach a 500 season in North American pro sports history. It took them 15 years to get to 500.
Art Thiel (57:06):
So, pathos reigned in the community and the Mariners had to give fans some emotional reason to support them.
Art Thiel (57:17):
So, the Mariners then began a run in August of '95 with this vote coming up September 15th or something. And they won an incredible amount of games with Griffey, and Randy Johnson, and Edgar Martinez, and Jay Buhner, Dan Wilson.
Art Thiel (57:38):
And this team really got hot. They were a good group of guys. They had a 60-second ad they played for ticket sales on TV. And the theme was, "You got to love these guys."
Art Thiel (57:55):
And it really worked because the guy they most loved besides Griffey was the manager, Lou Piniella. And Lou was just a great almost mythic figure here in Seattle because of what he did. And he managed to push all the buttons right, to get the team in contention.
Art Thiel (58:16):
And on the day of the vote in Seattle on this measure, the Mariners won a critical game against the Angels with a home run by the aptly named Doug Strange. And his home run was the critical one to get the Mariners ahead of the Angels.
Art Thiel (58:44):
Eventually they won, or they got the wild card birth. And that game and that series and the whole '95 playoffs generated enough emotional and political momentum that it overcame a poll defeat. That measure lost by a thousand votes out of 500,000 cast.
Art Thiel (59:08):
But the governor, the King County executive, and the mayor did not want to be the one that have the Mariners leave town.
Art Thiel (59:19):
So, they put together a special session of the state legislature with a different funding mechanism. They got it passed, and the Mariners then made the playoffs and beat the Yankees in an epic 3-2 Wild Card series. That was the first time the Yankees had been to the playoffs in 14 years. And it was great because ...
Art Thiel (59:45):
And I think the anecdote that I enjoyed the most out of that story was the first game at Yankee Stadium was incredibly rowdy. People throwing things on the field and controversial calls, and just this incredible tension.
Art Thiel (01:00:04):
Of course, Lou Piniella, the great Yankee player, was back in town with the Mariners. And so, there was another layer of sentimentality and competitiveness, and George Steinbrenner was the owner.
Art Thiel (01:00:14):
And the outfield bleachers and right field were always cat calling Jr. and Buhner in the outfield, making fun of them. And they were throwing things at them, including coins.
Art Thiel (01:00:36):
And as Buhner took his position before innings, he would look around him and he would go pick up the coins and he would stuff them into the folds of his glove.
Art Thiel (01:00:47):
And I could see him out there. And after the game I came up, I said, "What the hell are you doing with those coins?" He said, "When the riot breaks out, I'm running out of here and I want to make sure I have coins for the subway."
Todd Jones (01:01:08):
Wise man. I mean, think about it, Seattle, the Mariners were 12 and a half games back on August 24th. And they were stormed back to tie the Angels. They beat them in a one game playoff at the Kingdome.
Todd Jones (01:01:22):
Then, like you said, they beat the Yankees in that epic series. They lost to ALCS to Cleveland, but that season literally saved baseball in Seattle.
Art Thiel (01:01:31):
Yeah. And Lou put it best, he said in the game five finale of the Yankee Series, Edgar Martinez hit this famous double that scored Griffey from first base to win the game. And Lou said, “That was the hit, the run, the game, the series, and the season that saved baseball in Seattle.” And he was exactly right.
Todd Jones (01:05:12):
With all that in mind, that ‘95 season saving baseball and like you said, leading really to the NFL team, the Seahawks getting a new stadium even, when you think about the trickle down effect, it really all gets back to Ken Griffey Jr. in some way, right?
Art Thiel (01:05:30):
Yes, it does. Because his impact on baseball was immense nationally. And here it was hyper beyond belief because he was the first true homegrown hero for the Mariners. And his stardom was so magnified on the national scene because of the smile, the talent, and his willingness to engage people.
Art Thiel (01:06:01):
Sometimes it wasn't always that way, but clearly there were some tense times with Jr. too because he could be pretty impetuous and contrarian at times.
Art Thiel (01:06:13):
But clearly, he was the difference maker in saving the franchise, starting with his debut in '89 through the 1999 season. And that really was a difference maker in terms of the embrace.
Todd Jones (01:06:32):
As a voice of Seattle, a guy who wrote columns during that era of Griffey's apex of his career. What was it like for a writer to write about somebody who is having that type of impact that goes really beyond sports?
Art Thiel (01:06:52):
Well, speaking for myself, I enjoyed Griffey immensely for all the obvious reasons that anyone would. But I also willing to do the give and take with him.
Art Thiel (01:07:08):
And when he would come in with some kind of snarky remark, I would fire back. And we both understood that well enough to give each other grief without it leading into something unpleasant.
Art Thiel (01:07:27):
I do recall a phone call. I put a call into Griffey about something and I said, "I really need to hear from you." And a day later, the call came back to my home number from Griffey at the golf course. This is pre cell phone.
Art Thiel (01:07:49):
My wife answered the phone, and he says, "Is this Art's wife?" And she said, "Yes." And he said, "Why did you marry him?"
Todd Jones (01:08:03):
That's a pretty good line by Jr.
Art Thiel (01:08:05):
Well, it was. And we carried that banter throughout his time here, including afterwards because I think it was the year that he was inducted into the Hall of Fame. The announcement was he was, I think, unanimous or near unanimous now.
Art Thiel (01:08:26):
But the team had scheduled a press conference in Safeco Field to have him talk about everything. And just before that happened, Sports Illustrated came out with a story on Griffey, a big feature, put him on the cover.
Art Thiel (01:08:42):
And the cover I thought was ridiculous because showed him swinging a bat in a house. I guess it was his house, I don't remember. And he was dressed in this sky blue suit with big window pane panels on it. And the way as he was captured swinging the bat, it kind of bunched up on him. It looked terrible.
Art Thiel (01:09:10):
And so, Griffey shows up to the press conference, and he sees me, rolls his eyes, as he often did when he saw me. And I said to him, "Hey, I have a question about that cover on Sports Illustrated there with you in the suit swinging the bat. Did you lose a bet?"
Art Thiel (01:09:38):
And Griffey looks at me and he said, "You know, the only magazine that's going to put you on its cover is National Geographic." I said, "Well, Griffey wins that one."
Todd Jones (01:09:56):
Well, you got to give it up for him on that one.
Art Thiel (01:10:00):
Yeah. I mean, that was fun for me because Griffey could give it, he could take it. And it was just most people were in awe of him. But I got over that the first year, and he was just a guy that I could go up talk to in the clubhouse and he'd blow me off or something.
Art Thiel (01:10:22):
And he says something like, "Not today." And I said, "Well, I'll be back here tomorrow. Come up with something better than that." And that kind of banter.
Art Thiel (01:10:33):
And I think a lot of writers probably have had that kind of relationship with a central figure in one of the sports teams, whether it's football, baseball, basketball, whatever. And that's something I've always enjoyed.
Art Thiel (01:10:46):
I mean, I don't think he wouldn't call me a close friend, or I wouldn't, and I don't get into friendships with players or coaches or whatever.
Todd Jones (01:10:56):
Right. You're not there to be anybody's friend. You're a journalist.
Art Thiel (01:10:59):
And so, I was completely comfortable with giving him grief and taking it in return. And every month I get my National Geographic and I look at the cover and I'm not there. Griffey wins that one 1-0.
Todd Jones (01:11:19):
Well, we're going to wrap this up. And we didn't really even get into NFL, but before we leave, you mentioned a guy that I also had dealings with, and I dealt with Griffey when he was with the Reds, and I'd be down in Cincinnati writing. So, I know what you're talking about in terms of his relationship with the media.
Todd Jones (01:11:36):
But another guy I also dealt with before he got to Seattle was Lou Piniella. I was working in Cincinnati when Lou was the manager of the Reds and led them to the '90 championship. And like you said, he was the guy who pushed all the buttons in that '95 season.
Todd Jones (01:11:51):
And Lou is one of my favorites to ever be around, because he was just so unpredictable, but also just great to deal with. I found it was like he could blow up at you one day, but he could also just talk with you about anything the next.
Todd Jones (01:12:08):
What type of working relationship did you have with Lou Piniella? Who lasted, by the way, 10 years in Seattle. That's a long time for a guy like that. How did you get along with Lou?
Art Thiel (01:12:18):
He mentioned that, and after his decision to move to Tampa, I was alone in his office and typical Lou, he was in his underwear with socks and about three cigarettes going on the ashtray at the same time.
Todd Jones (01:12:36):
Yes.
Art Thiel (01:12:38):
And he goes, "Ah, 10 years. Who would've thought that? Not me. How the hell did I get to 10 years here?"
Todd Jones (01:12:48):
Good question.
Art Thiel (01:12:49):
Yeah. And it was really, he was such a figure of endearment, I think to most everybody in Seattle. His tantrums are legendary and every baseball blooper reel has got Lou throwing a base or kicking his hat or something like that.
Art Thiel (01:13:07):
But there was a lot of substance to Lou, and it came out in the affection that the players had for him and how they dealt with him. And he could obviously be gruff and tough.
Art Thiel (01:13:24):
And I had one episode with Lou that really sort of sold me on him.
Art Thiel (01:13:30):
In the year that they were scheduled to move into the new Safeco Field ballpark, it was going to be a totally transformative baseball experience, because it'll be outdoors in the cold air of the Northwest in April, May, and June. And it's going to really deaden the flight of the ball.
Art Thiel (01:13:54):
And that's one of the reasons Griffey wound up in Cincinnati was because he knew that his pursuit of any career home run records was really going to be hurt by going to the outdoor field at Safeco instead of the indoor park at the Kingdome.
Art Thiel (01:14:07):
And the Mariners had a real disappointing season prior to that, largely because Lou hated pitchers.
Todd Jones (01:14:22):
Oh, yeah, yeah. Legendary for that.
Art Thiel (01:14:24):
Yeah. And he was a hitter. He just congenitally hated pitchers. And I remember there was one episode where he got furious with somebody, one of his relief pitchers in the mound.
Art Thiel (01:14:36):
And after three pitches, two hits, Lou's stomping out to the mound. And before Lou gets even to the mound, the pitcher says, "Lou, I'm trying." And then Lou gets up there and he sweeps his arm towards the stadium, and he says, "Trying? I can get an F-ing truck driver to try."
Todd Jones (01:15:06):
I can hear that voice right now.
Art Thiel (01:15:10):
And so, getting back to the stadium switch, I wrote a column that said Lou Piniella and General manager, Woody Woodward, had to go because Lou was not going to be the manager for a pitcher friendly ballpark that was hurting his hitters.
Art Thiel (01:15:33):
So, I make a rule when I do something to somebody off, I show up as soon as I can to face the music because I think that's what sportswriters who call people out, they should be able to do it and let the subject say what they want to your face.
Art Thiel (01:15:53):
And so, I showed up for the game the next day, and the first question was, "Hey, Lou, somebody says you're supposed to get fired," or words to that effect. And Lou said, "Yeah, yeah, I know the guy. We'll talk." And he is looking right at me. And so, I said, “Well, let's meet up.”
Art Thiel (01:16:23):
I didn't engage and Lou didn't want to engage before the game with me. So, after the game, I said, "Well, where would you like to talk?"
Art Thiel (01:16:31):
And it happened that the Mariners were flying to Oakland, and I was flying to Oakland for a subsequent Seahawks Raiders game. And I said, "Why don't we meet at the Coliseum?" And he says, "Okay."
Art Thiel (01:16:45):
Lou and I make a date in the visitor's manager's office, and I go in and we talk for 45 minutes. And his voice gets high. And mine, I'm starting to talk about it and I'm getting a little angry. But at the end of the 45 minutes, he sticks his hand out and shakes mine, says, "Good talk." And I thought, "Wow."
Art Thiel (01:17:21):
As I go to open the door, I pull it open and every beat writer is leaning up against the door and is like falling like a cartoon, into the news office because they were dying to hear what was going on.
Art Thiel (01:17:36):
And so, long story short obviously, the didn't fire Woody Woodward that winter, and they kept Lou, as we all know. And Lou said something to me when I saw him at Spring training the next year. I said something about, "Well, it looks like my influence isn't very good. You're still here."
Art Thiel (01:18:04):
And he laughed and he said, "Sometimes I can be wrong and sometimes you can be right." And he said, "I understood your point, because I try to understand people I respect."
Art Thiel (01:18:25):
And that was one of the biggest compliments I'd ever received in the old sports writing dodge. And we shook hands again.
Art Thiel (01:18:35):
And I mentioned that not because Lou was flattering me, but because it reflects on his humanity that Lou can be tempestuous, can be confrontational. He can be just out of control sometimes, but he can forget it and he can forgive it.
Art Thiel (01:18:59):
And all of us, I think in Seattle for those great 10 years, understood that that's how Lou operated.
Art Thiel (01:19:06):
And it was a part of his success because Lou could be himself. And as difficult as those moments were, he was gracious, warm, sincere, and really a guy that everybody gave great affection to because he was ultimately so respectful, even if he was furious for 10 seconds, or 2 minutes, or 45 minutes sometimes.
Art Thiel (01:19:34):
And that's one of the reasons I think he's one of my all-time favorite people to cover in sports.
Todd Jones (01:19:40):
Same here, same here.
Todd Jones (01:23:30):
Well, Art, this has been just a tremendous conversation. I really, really have enjoyed your stories. We've been all over the place from some great laughs but also some poignant moments.
Todd Jones (01:23:42):
And I'll leave you with this final question. When people say to you, "What was it like to be a sportswriter?" What do you think of?
Art Thiel (01:23:54):
Well, I sometimes rely on the words of Broadway playwright Stephen Sondheim when something funny happened on the way to the forum, wrote in a lyric, "Something appealing and something appalling."
Art Thiel (01:24:17):
Because there was so much to like about the job from the interactions and of my colleagues like you, the players, the coaches, the owners, there was an intensity, a dynamic that I really enjoyed for the longest time.
Art Thiel (01:24:40):
And the appalling part was at an Olympics and trying to write a story on a laptop when the Japanese photographer on the other seat falls asleep on your shoulder.
Todd Jones (01:24:58):
That sounds like personal experience you're speaking of.
Art Thiel (01:25:00):
Yes, it does. And then the only thing that probably I'm glad to be done with the business is the need to be on scan 24/7.
Art Thiel (01:25:15):
If you're a daily journalist, that's your job. You've got to pay attention to everything all the time, especially as a columnist, because we have to cover multiple teams on multiple subjects. And that really is an intensity over time. You don't notice day to day, but incrementally, that daily journalism gig is hard on all of us.
Art Thiel (01:25:41):
Now, that's the first world problem. I'm not complaining, I'm not lamenting about it, but it is something that once I'm not dealing with that, I feel liked, I feel something appealing instead of something appalling.
Art Thiel (01:25:56):
So, it was great to be part of it. It's great to be beyond it now. And I savor all the memories. And this has been a real opportunity to share a few with you and the viewers.
Todd Jones (01:26:12):
Well, thanks a lot, Art.
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