"The Greatest: Media Share Memories of Muhammad Ali in and out of The Ring"

"The Greatest: Media Share Memories of Muhammad Ali in and out of The Ring."

Muhammad Ali. . . . The Greatest.

He was so much more than the three-time heavyweight champion of the world.

No sports figure of the 20th century can match Ali’s impact – on boxing, on sports in general, and on all of society.

On this January 17th of 2024 – which would have been his 82nd birthday – we’re celebrating Ali with a special episode of Press Box Access.

This is a compilation of stories about Ali that guests have shared on our show in the past three years.

Eight sportswriters recall their memories of The Greatest inside the ring and out.

Their tales go as far back as 1960 and take us all through his incredible life.

They put us ringside at some of boxing’s most famous moments.

They take us with Ali on trains, into hotel rooms, to the Olympics — even to the circus.

Let’s begin with Tom Archdeacon, who has covered more than 200 fights as a columnist in Ohio and Florida.

Arch, tell us about Ali.

Tom Archdeacon

[00:01:36.410] - Speaker 3

Well, he was probably, of all the athletes I have dealt with, he's one of my favorite, if not the favorite guys, just because of the way he treated. I don't care if it was royalty or the guy sweeping the floor to Fifth Street Gym. He treated them the same. And he just took you on some real adventures. And I had a few with him, and I just love the guy. I know his courage too.

[00:02:02.910] - Speaker 2

Yeah, very much so, right? I mean, he stood up for what he believed in. I know a lot of people have written a lot of words about Ali over the years. I don't know anybody who has actually gone to the circus with Ollie.

[00:02:15.190] - Speaker 3

Yes, I used to. I worked in Miami, Florida, for a long time. I was a columnist down there. And I'd go over at lunchtime and I'd go to the Fist Street Gym almost every day, and I see the old timers in there, and Ali trained in there and part of the time, and I would see him and talk to him. And so one day I've been in there for about a week and we were talking and Ringling Brothers Circus always opens in Miami Beach. They bring elephants across the causeway and they open. So he asked me if I want to go the circus with him. I went, yeah, that'd be alright. So he comes by, they send a car by the gym. I came to the gym, pick me up at the gym. And in there, his two little daughters, I think Leila. I mean, he's got a bunch of kids, but Layla must have been, I don't know, two, three years old. And she had another sister, Hannah, that was maybe a year old or so. And so the four of us go to the circus and we're sitting down kind of it's indoors at the convention center in Miami Beach.

[00:03:21.060] - Speaker 3

We're sitting down in kind of the front row, and I go out and get some popcorn. We're sitting there, and Ollie all of a sudden, while I was getting popcorn, I didn't know what happened. I come back, and Ollie tells me, he says, I'll be right back. And I go, okay. So now I'm there with his two little girls in five minutes, turns into ten minutes, and I'm starting to panic, and they're starting to answer on I'm going, you know, what the hell is going on here? All of a sudden, the curtains at the far end part, and there comes an elephant in and there's who's on the back of the elephant but Ali. And the place goes nuts. And they come on the little girls are squealing on, and they got a handler in front, and they come over to where we're sitting in the front box, and the guy has to be hand one of the little girls over and he puts her down the ground. He often puts his trunk around her and lifts her up and brings her up to Ali. They set the next one up with Ali and Ali.

[00:04:14.070] - Speaker 3

The little girls are waving goodbye to me, and Ali takes off. I never saw him again the rest of the night. So I was going to the circus with Ali. You never know what's going to happen with him.

[00:04:27.010] - Speaker 2

Why didn't you get on the elephant, Tom? I'm just curious.

[00:04:30.040] - Speaker 3

I don't think that trunk could have picked up.

[00:04:33.860] - Speaker 2

Did he ever pay you for babysitting?

[00:04:35.700] - Speaker 3

Yeah. No. But it was years later. I covered some Ollie fights along the way. Not a lot, but I covered some. Especially his last losses. But years later, I see Ali function at a junior college, and he's there, and he's walking kind of wobbly and things like this. And he sees me, and he motions over, and his voice was kind of a whispering on. He motions me to come over, and he goes, you got old. And I go, well, you're pretty old. You look pretty old yourself. And he goes, yeah, but I'm still pretty. And then he just said he still had that little sparkle in his eye. And I liked the way he treated everybody, but the way he stood up we got some athletes now that we're seeing it again as some athletes that are really standing for something. And we'll speak out on matters of social justice and things like that. But that's what I admired most to him.

Dave Kindred – on my personal Mt. Rushmore of sportswriters – covered 17 of Ali fights, dating back to when he wrote for the Courier-Journal in Louisville, Kentucky, the champ’s hometown.

There was never a dull moment.

Dave Kindred

[00:22:15.000] - Todd

Do you recall the first time you met Ali? I think it was 1966 right?

[00:22:21.410] - Dave

Absolutely. Again, I was a kid on the coffee desk, but they knew I wanted to be a writer. I was in there every day looking for something to do. And one day I sense have looked it up. It was one day in October of 1066. Boss comes into the office. Everybody was my boss at the time and says, Clay is in town. Go find him.

[00:22:48.230] - Todd

So they still called in cash.

[00:22:51.050] - Dave

It was two years after he announced that his name was Muhammad Ali. The newspaper style still was to call him Cassius Clay comma, also known as Muhammad Ali. So Clay is in town. Go find him. Well, I know who they meant, but I didn't know where to go find him. And they said, well, his dad's got an art Gallery. Art Gallery unquote two blocks down Broadway. So I went down there and saw Cassius Clay senior. He said, just go look at our house. Well, okay. Where's your house? Well, it was in the west end of Louisville. Well, I didn't even know east from west. Which way is west? So it pointed me toward the neighborhood where most of the African Americans in Louisville lived. West end of Louisville. So I go driving. I've got my son with me three years old, and I'm just stop and ask somebody, you've seen Caches? Everybody had seen Caches. He was in town to do a promotion. He just gone back into his old neighborhood and was walking around just seeing everybody. So Cassius Ali got in my car and we drove around all day, wherever he wanted to go.

[00:24:13.590] - Dave

He was carrying my son with him. So from then on, I always looked at him as a sweetheart. I always thought that he was. And of course, that was talking about 1966. That was at the height of a time when most people in America despised him. He was at 66, 67 because he was refusing the draft. He had joined the black Muslims. He was probably the most reviled man in America. But I saw him as a sweetheart. He was great with kids. He was fun to be with. And I saw him as that person from 66 through. Last time I saw him was somewhere in the early 20 06, 20 10. He was that guy all the time. I just saw him in a little different way than other people had seen him. So I wrote about him that day, and I've been writing about him for 50 years, almost 60 years since.

[00:25:20.850] - Todd

I think you said that you interviewed him more than 300 times, right?

[00:25:25.470] - Dave

Well, yeah, and that's just a guess. It was ridiculous. I was always with him when he was in town. I was with him when I was in Louisville. Every fight, I'd be there for a week ahead of the fight. And his hotel room was always open. You could not avoid him. Unlike most celebrities who have this aura of don't bother me Ali wanted to be bothered. Ali wanted people around him. If there wasn't anybody with him, he would go find them. He would just go stand on the street corner, let's go for a walk, because he knew that pretty soon there'd be 500 people following him. So 300 is probably a conservative estimate of how many times. And it's not even true, Todd, to say that I interviewed him three times.

[00:26:23.300] - Todd

Why do you say that?

[00:26:25.050] - Dave

I probably interviewed him twice. Most of the time I just listened. He just started talking. I don't know how many times. I'd be in a hotel room with another 1015 writers and he'd be declaiming on some subject. And if you look at you and say, you're getting this down, you're getting this down, man. This is heavy, man. If you weren't taking proper notes, he would stop until you caught up. So it was never really a dialogue with Ali. It was mostly listening. It was endlessly entertaining. And it was always fun to be around him. Yeah, he became a different person before then. He was the racist, ranting black Muslim, did everything we're taught to not talk about politics or religion or race. He talked about politics, religion and race all the time.

[00:27:29.310] - Todd

Right.

[00:27:30.170] - Dave

74 became different because Elijah Muhammad, the leader of the Nation of Islam sect, died. Ali was basically freed up by that the Nation chain tune became more reasonable, actually began to practice true Islam instead of the Nation of Islam. So he became a different guy, became closer to the guy that I thought that he was the first time in 66, right.

[00:28:06.320] - Todd

Well, you really got close to him in 1973 because I read your book, one of your many books. I read Sound and Fury, your book about Ali and the announcer Howard Cosell in their relationship, the dual biography that you wrote. There was a moment in 1973 when you set the scenes in Las Vegas. It's a hotel suite. What the hell happened?

[00:28:29.030] - Dave

Well, as I said, his hotel suite was always open. He wanted people there. I was there. I forget what fight it was, but I was there. I go up to the hotel room, the suite. There's a bedroom to the right, a bedroom to the left with a center area where everybody was gathered. I can see Ali in bed in the right hand side, and he sees me. He waves at me. Come on in. Trying to do a column on his entourage. Well, he's in bed. He can't hear me. I can't hear him. So I get closer to the bed and he raises up the sheet of the bed, corner of the sheet and says, get in. So I don't know what most people would do when the heavyweight champion of the world says, get in. But I did. And one of us was wearing clothes and we pulled the blankets up over our heads. And I do this interview or I'm asking about his entourage. He takes my notebook and writes the names of his people working for him and how much money he's paying them each week. And we talk about whatever fight it is.

[00:29:39.860] - Dave

We're like a couple of little kids hiding from their mother, hiding from their parents under the blanket. They're supposed to be asleep, but they're talking. So I get done with the interview and I leave. I try to leave, and then I realized that Ali still has my notebook. So I have to go back and get my notebook and then I leave. But yeah, I use that as an introduction to that book because it was a way of showing how close I was, literally and figuratively to Ali at that time.

[00:30:17.200] - Todd

Right. Ali has become such a mythical figure. What do you think we get wrong about him today?

[00:30:27.390] - Dave

Well, I think we get wrong to Parkinson's, for one thing. I think what we saw in Ali was what we have now identified in football players as CTE. It's brain damage. Every fighter, every fighter who in the last hundred years have been called punch drunk. That's what it is, brain damage. And Ali may have developed Parkinson's from the brain damage, but he was suffering for a long time before that. Soaring words, stumbling, trembling. He was a wounded person. So I think we get that wrong in the sense that we kind of absolve him from that, absolve ourselves even from being entertained by this man being ruined.

Tim Smith covered boxing for many years at the New York Times, New York Daily News, and Cincinnati Enquirer.

He tells us about a special day in the early ’90s when he spent 3 hours with Ali.

Tim Smith

[01:06:25.570] - Tim Smith

It's unbelievable. And access that he granted and that he invited Greg Noble, the sports editor at the Cincinnati Enquirer. They were having a card signing. And it was still one of the most eclectic card signings I've ever been to because it was Billy Martin, Johnny Bench. And I think that Oscar Robertson was there. But it was Mohammed. Ali was a huge card signing at Riverfront Colosseum.

[01:07:01.730] - Todd Jones

Those are some big names.

[01:07:03.230] - Tim Smith

And so Greg says, Go down and see if you can talk to Ali because Ali was the onset of, like, Parkinson's. And so I went down and I didn't pay because I was a reporter, local reporter. And so I went down and I cycled up to Ali while he was signing some autographs. And I said, I'd like to interview you and talk to you. And he says, Well, I'm working right now. But if you come by my hotel room tomorrow morning at 07:00, I'll give you all the time you need.

[01:07:34.850] - Tim Smith

And I'm thinking, this guy is setting me up. Man, I'm going to go knock on this guy's hotel room. Some drunk is going to open the door and punch me in the face. So I go to the hotel and it's like some airport hotel near the Cincinnati airport. It was in Kentucky. And so I go and I knock on the door and Ali comes to the door. And he is larger than life. Basically, I'm about the same height. I mean, he's like, six, two. I'm 61.

[01:08:08.250] - Tim Smith

But I felt like I was looking up at this monumental figure when he came to the door and 07:00 in the morning. He's fully dressed. He's got all, like, nice shirts, slacks and everything, dress, shoes. And he said, Come in and it's like a sweet. So we're in one part of the sweet. He's like, my kids are sleeping in the other room, so we have to be a little bit quiet. I was like, okay.

[01:08:32.010] - Todd Jones

Well, Sam Weiss watching the kids.

[01:08:38.110] - Tim Smith

That's a great one. So for the next 3 hours, so weird. For the next 3 hours, I talked to ODI about everything. You name it. We talked about it fighting Fraser at Madison Square Garden. We talked about being suspended for the three years being a conscientious objector, and I still can't find this thing. He tried to convert me to Islam. He signed, like, a little Islamic track for me, gave it to me, and did all of his magic tricks, the cricket behind the year, the coin from behind, the year.

[01:09:20.450] - Tim Smith

He even levitated. And to this day, I don't know how he did it, but he said, Take this piece of paper and slide it under my feet. He said, I'm going to be off the ground. And I literally slid a piece of paper under his feet. He was not touching the ground. He was not touching the ground. Todd, when I tell you the guy wasn't touching the ground, I slid the piece of paper under his feet and it wasn't heels to toe thing. It was like, literally.

[01:09:45.770] - Tim Smith

He's like, no, because you're not going to believe he's like, slide it from side to side.

[01:09:50.570] - Todd Jones

Come on.

[01:09:52.610] - Tim Smith

It was the weirdest thing. So, like, midway during the interview, this is the wackiest part. Midway through the interview I'm talking toiley and he falls asleep. I mean, just like, falls asleep, just starts, nods out and he's sitting there. He's, like, nodding and I'm going, like, okay, what do I do? Do I get up and leave? All right. Am I going to do the creepy thing and sit here and watch and sleep? Do I just sit here silently look at my notes or whatever.

[01:10:22.430] - Todd Jones

So what happened?

[01:10:23.990] - Tim Smith

I did the creepy thing. I sat there and watch all you sleep. I'm like, I can't leave. I can try to wake him up, but he woke up when he woke up. He was refreshed. He was great at that point. His voice was softer, but he wasn't showing any signs of other than nodding out. He wasn't showing any signs of the Parkinson's having a major effect on him or anything. He did his Ali shuffle. He told me that he would beat Ali. He told me that he would beat Mike Tyson, and it wouldn't take him as long as it would take him to be Sunny listed.

[01:11:09.990] - Tim Smith

I was like, wow, really? He said, yeah, he said. He's very fast. He's strong, he said, but I'm faster and I'm stronger and I'm like, okay, whatever you say, Mr. Ali.

[01:11:18.810] - Todd Jones

Hey, man. He levitates. I'm not betting against the great.

[01:11:21.450] - Tim Smith

Yeah, I'm not betting against a guy who can get up off the ground.

Jerry Izenberg knows about Ali levitating. And much more.

Jerry, who began his amazing journalism career in 1951, covered more of Ali’s fights than any sportswriter.

He witnessed the levitation act on a day he traveled with Ali by train from New York City to the state capital of Albany.

And wait until you hear how that day ended.

Jerry Izenberg

[00:28:40] - Jerry

But we had look, a guy by the name of Haywood Plumed or that nobody remembers was an assemblyman in the New York State Legislature, and he got his committee to vote. They got to have hearings about banning boxing from New York because New York is so pure they can put up with the Mafia, but they can't put up with boxing.

[00:28:59.290] - Jerry

All right.

[00:28:59.830] - Todd

Early 60s.

[00:29:01.930] - Jerry

All right. So I go up there and I'm in the Grand Central Station because John Connor was a PR guy from the Garden, said it's going to be an exciting hearing. You want to come and cover it? I said, yeah, I will come. All right. I meet him in the lobby. And there's this commode in the lobby of Grand Central Station. Now to get attention in the lobby of Grand Central Station. God forbid you drop a bomber. So I don't know how people are going to work.

[00:29:26.710] - Jerry

They're coming back at 830 in the morning. It's a mess. And I hear this commotion and it's himself. He comes in and he's waving a magic. He's got a wand in his hand. And these four bastards during the Gray flannel suit army, they don't want to go to work. It's the same shit. Five days a week. They go back and they're not getting along with their wives. And they have a drink. They're just not happy people. He stops him. I will do magic for you. Who the hell is this nut?

[00:30:02.890] - Jerry

And then he gets up on his toes and he says, I am Levitating. I can't. This guy is crazy. So we get on a trainer, and he decides to sit next to me. We're talking the trainer. By the time we get up there, my ears are bleeding. He walks in. I noticed something. All of a sudden the room is packed with secretaries who work at the Commission and the government buildings. And they all want to see him.

[00:30:32.590] - Todd

They all want to see Ali.

[00:30:34.990] - Jerry

He gets up at Holmetor says, Well, I think it's very suspicious that you can call around in which you will win a fight. And Allie says, Well, I know you're a good God fearing Christian. You must have read the Bible. I'm a Prophet. You know what prophets are? He said, I don't think you're a Prophet. I think you're a thief. And Ali said, you think I'm a crook? Well, he said you promoted him. He was in the semi. Well, Senator, all I can say is, it takes a thief to know a thief, not a joint breaks up right now.

[00:31:06.070] - Jerry

We're going back to New York City on the midnight train. It sounds like you're still entitled. And I'm riding in my room there. We took a hotel room. Of course it's midnight. We're going to travel. He comes in a room, he says, I'm so tired. I got to sleep. I got to sweep. I said, lay down on my bed. My brothers don't make my go to sleep. So he did. And he snore it on my bed, which I never used anyway, because we were going back that night.

[00:31:39.770] - Jerry

So I'm writing. He's snoring now. Wherever we went after that, he would say, Put his arm around me and say, this man gave me his bed. This man gave me his bed. And finally, one day I said, that's because I didn't know who you were. That's the kind of relationship.

[00:32:01.070] - Todd

But he never forgot.

[00:32:02.930] - Jerry

Jerry.

Izenberg still has a vivid memory of the first time he encountered Ali.

Jerry Izenberg

[00:25:35] - Jerry

And I met him in 1960 at the Rome Olympics.

[00:25:46.970] - Todd

Just a skinny kid from Louisville.

[00:25:49.550] - Jerry

I didn't even go to his fight big deal. He won the light heavyweight trip of the Olympics, which is like being a patchy reindeer chief today didn't mean a thing, right? But he's sitting on the steps in Rome, in the Olympic Village, and he's got the metal and he's holding it up. And athletes are walking by or above him on a kind of a street, and he's yelling, this is the Olympic metal, like they didn't know, like the heaven didn't have one. And he's saying, this is going to make me the greatest fighter in history, the greatest of all time.

[00:26:26.810] - Jerry

And I didn't pay attention to it until I noticed something. What most of the people who walked by couldn't understand what the hell he was saying. They didn't speak English. And I noticed these three girls stopped after he was speaking and looked over their shoulders, stopped and took a second look at him. And I said, there's something about this guy. I better not forget that's who he was. He was a very handsome guy, and he was brash. And I didn't pay attention to him. And he kept calling me on the phone when he got back because Angelo Dundee kept putting him up to it.

[00:27:08.050] - Jerry

If we can get him in a fight, if we can get him to come see one of your fights, we're okay.

[00:27:14.050] - Todd

Dundee was trying to get fights.

[00:27:17.290] - Jerry

He got trying to get publicity. He wanted me to come to the fight, right? So all he calls me from Pittsburgh. And he says, you got to come to Pittsburgh Thursday. I said, first of all, it's snowing in Pittsburgh right now. I don't like to stop for gas in Pittsburgh. Why would I come to see you fight a former professional football player who can't spell fight. Why would I come here to see you do that? He should be calling in the fourth round. I said, Fine. Call me some other time.

[00:27:53.530] - Jerry

I'll talk to you. I got to go to work. He calls me back after he knocks at Charlie Powell. And I'm thinking, I ought to go see him once, right? As luck would have. It the first time I actually saw him in person. No television or nothing fight was Doug Jones, and I thought he lost a fight. Yeah.

[00:28:14.710] - Todd

Doug Jones knocked him down, right?

[00:28:16.630] - Jerry

No, he didn't knock him down, but he won the fight. And Allie was a house fighter at that point. Getting ready? Well, the fight was not good. That's why he had to go to England and fight Henry Cooper Cooper. Right. Because the list and fight was in jeopardy. [00:28:40]

Ali, of course, improved enough to shock the world and become heavyweight champion as Cassius Clay – as he was known then – when he upset Sonny Liston on February 25, 1964.

He held the title until ’67, when he was banished from boxing for his refusal to be inducted into the military.

After 43 months out of the ring, Ali returned to the fight game and future glory, but he was a different fighter, as Dave Kindred explained.

Dave Kindred

[00:35:23.240] - Todd

Right. You did see him at his best as an athlete. I think sometimes too, we rightfully remember the fact of what he stood for, what he expressed, all the right things that he stood for. But that platform came from his performance as an athlete, as a boxer. And you really kind of saw two different all these right, as a fighter. You saw the young one before he was banished because of his stance on the draft. And then you saw the older champ win back his title. So you saw the athlete of Ali develop over the years too.

[00:35:59.230] - Dave

Well, I've often said that the two greatest fighters of all time were Cassius Clay and Mohammed with Ali because they're completely different. Ali Cash's Clay was 6263, £200. You couldn't hit him, you couldn't catch him, you couldn't find him, float like a butterfly, sting like a Bee. Absolutely perfect description of what he was then. He's the greatest athlete that I ever saw. Greatest athlete that I will ever see. He was beautiful, he was strong, he was fast, he was quick witted in the ring, I'm talking about as an athlete. And then he lost when he was suspended on the whole draft conviction thing, 67 to 70, he was gone four years, the greatest four years of any athlete's life. He didn't fight every athlete, whether it's baseball, football, whatever, the greatest years of their life are, 27 to 30, 27 to 31. They're learning it, they're mastering it, they've mastered it. He had those four years taken away from him. So he came back as a different fighter against Joe Frazier the first time.

[00:35:59.230] - Dave

So he came back as a different fighter against Joe Frazier the first time. It was a great fight. Greatest fight that I will ever see. (37:32)

Vito Stellino was ringside as a reporter at Madison Square Garden that night of March 8, 1971 when the champ Frazier defeated Ali in the Fight of the Century.

Vito Stellino

[00:09:25.690] - Vito

Yeah. But what I remember most is that my assignment was the Muhammad Ali press conference after the Matt, which was the cover of the Simon. I wasn't really a boxing writer, but that was the thing to cover because he was such a Mohammed. He was Mohammed Ali, and he was going to say all kinds of things. And so I'm looking forward to you aren't going to be lacking for quotes that night, that's for sure. Well, Mohammed took such a beating in that match, but he did not come out for the press conference. So instead of Mohammed, we got Bandini Brown. So I went from having what would have been a great story to press conference with Bendini Brown talking about the fight. And I don't think people remember that now that Mohammed didn't even come up for a Press conference, which was so unusual for him because he loved the spotlight. But as I say, he may have fought him too soon. The three and a half years, he was rusty. And the amazing thing is he came back and won the other two. But actually, of course, they kept fighting. A toll took on him, and it actually, in the end, became kind of a sad story.

[00:11:08.050] - Todd

You think about that fight was so brutal that Frazier, the winner, was immediately taken to the hospital. He was the winner.

[00:11:16.690] - Vito

Yeah. It was just amazing. They went 15 rounds then, and he finally knocked all the down at one point, I think, late in the fight. But, yeah, it was just brutal and it was such an event. But on the other hand, you have all these second thoughts about the price those guys paid for those three fights. And of course, now boxing, nobody even knows who the heavy champion is. It's really changed. (11:55)

Dave Kindred also covered that epic fight and shared his memories.

Dave Kindred

[00:37:42.350] - Dave

Well, it was Ollie's third fight back. The first one was against Jerry Corey in Atlanta. Kind of a warm up, knocked him out, 7th round. Then he fought Oscar Bonvina, who was a great fighter in his own right. Unrecognized at the time, 15 rounds. Ollie won the decision or knocked him out, really technical knockout in the 15th. And then it comes to Frazier. Fraser was a fierce fighter. Fraser was probably the greatest fighter of his time, except for Ali. I was in the first row ringside just opposite Ali's corner. Third or fourth round? Third or fourth round. Ali is on the ropes, leaning backwards and looks down at me. We make eye contact. I don't think he knows who I am. I'm just a guy sitting at ringside. But he's doing this. No contest. No contest. Meanwhile, Frazier is just wailing away at him. And Ali gave away three or four rounds early. So he's not going to win a decision. He was going to have to knock him out and he wasn't going to knock Fraser out that night. It was an amazing fight, an amazing athletic contest, but it was what is that, 29, 51 years ago?

[00:39:08.130] - Dave

I can still see it.

[00:39:11.790] - Todd

Frank Sinatra was in the front row, right, taking photos.

[00:39:15.990] - Dave

He was on the other side of the ring for me. I didn't have any conversation with Sinatra, but I did see him. And one thing, one of the mysteries is where was Howard Cosell that night? I did this book, Ali and Cosell. But Cosell, of course, didn't work the fight, but he claims he was there, but I never saw him.

[00:39:38.510] - Todd

He was also good to call, I believe.

[00:39:42.910] - Dave

Yes, it was an amazing night. Although in my mind, Todd, it's second to the Corey fight in Atlanta night, really. That night was the most amazing congregation of people that I had ever seen.

[00:40:04.310] - Todd

Well, put us there. Tell us all about it. Put us there.

[00:40:10.950] - Dave

It was wide brimmed hats, brimmed with purple Hermine. And it was yellow robes with gold trim. And it was high heels and sequins. And those were the men.

[00:40:31.830] - Todd

I was going to say women were even more beautiful.

[00:40:35.850] - Dave

Everybody showed up. It was like Halloween and Harlem or something. They all worked. Were there. Every black person in America came to Atlanta that night. Diana Ross was in Ali's locker room afterwards. It was an amazing congregation of people, the likes of which New York couldn't even represent what had happened in Atlanta that night. It was amazing. It was an amazing thing. Mr. T was working for Raleigh there.

[00:41:26.760] - Todd

He was a bodyguard guy anyway.

[00:41:29.410] - Dave

Yeah. Not doing a very good job of describing that. I'm trying to restrain myself, but it was just an amazing thing. (41:26)

Another amazing night occurred in Africa on October 30th, 1974 when Ali regained the heavyweight championship by knocking out George Foreman.

It was the Rumble in the Jungle.

Jerry Izenberg covered the fight and put us there with his memories.

Jerry Izenberg

[00:48:45.690] - Todd

What did you think, Jerry? What did you think as a fight unfolded when Ali started doing the ropedope strategy, what did you think was going on?

[00:48:53.010] - Jerry

Well, first of all, let me tell you, I have a different opinion. I don't call it strategy because he got hit in the first round. When Former hits her, he hit you. So we went to the ropes to figure it out. Well, he's standing there like this, trying to say, all right, now, what am I going to do? Because that's the way I already thought it. And Foreman is winging these planes. He's going to get through these two gloves. You couldn't get through there with a mortar because Alley's holding his hands, he doesn't hit him in his stomach.

[00:49:26.910] - Jerry

He's going through the two gloves because he was stubborn. And he admitted that to me years later, Ali says, Well, this is not so bad. Let him punch himself out. The arms are heavy, big muscles, you know, you punch like a girl. You still haven't hit me.

[00:49:47.490] - Todd

Oh, could you hear all these saying.

[00:49:49.470] - Jerry

No, but he told me that later. And Foreman told me that. Foreman told me he came up to him before the fight and said, you punch like a girl. And Dundee and the brain trust is yelling, Get off the ropes, get off the which I probably would have yelled if I were a corner man. Get off the ropes. By the fourth round, Alley realized he wasn't getting off those ropes. Came and said, Everybody here, shut the hell up. Just shut up. I know what I'm doing because Angelo was a great PR man.

[00:50:19.950] - Jerry

And Angelo was a good trainer. Not a great trainer. But he was great during the fight. The guy's doing this, you should do that. That's when he was really earned his money. Alley trained himself as far as do I want a box today. Do I don't want you. Okay, so now the punch is coming all during the fight. Lister, by that time, Mister hadn't taken over the New York Post yet. He was a Sportset of the London son because Murdoch wound up owning both papers. So he's going to broadcast a blow by blow to London because it's a shorter time frame.

[00:50:58.110] - Todd

He's dictating during the five.

[00:50:59.370] - Jerry

Yeah, exactly. Because they're going to get in the paper and get an extra out. And I said, what are you doing? The phone. He said, Well, I'm going to do. I said, the phone is not going to work. This is the morning of the fight. It's not going to work.

[00:51:11.490] - Todd

Nothing works here.

[00:51:12.390] - Jerry

Don't you understand that? He said, look, and he dialed the number and somebody picks it up and says, Hello, you see, it works. Jerry, I will take you to lunch at 21 in New York City. If that phone works during the fight and if it doesn't, all you got to do is get me a Big Mac. That's how sure I am. Well, all during the fight, he's saying he's on the ropes. I don't know why he's there. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. He's not getting tired.

[00:51:44.850] - Jerry

I think he's hurting out. He's one everywhere. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear. And he goes on all through the fight. Bing bang, right cross, sneaky, right hand, lead, left hook, right again. But he's going down by that time. And as whisker, he's going down. Looks up. Can you hear me? And across the ring, the bells and technicians. Yes, I can hear you. He has broadcasted the entire fight from one end of the ring to the other end of the ring, and it's never got to London.

[00:52:15.930] - Jerry

And that fight was better than Alley Foreman. Jerry went across that ring because Jerry had been a boxing scholarship holder at San Jose, stated, but anyway, it ends.

[00:52:31.110] - Todd

I'll leave wiring down the rope of workforce. ##man Tires out. Ali knocks him out. What was it like at that moment when Foreman fell to the camp?

[00:52:40.470] - Jerry

Well, first of all, it was like chopping down in California Redwood. He fell in sections, like his ankles hit the ground, that his knees hit the ground, then his chest hit the ground. He says today he thinks he might have beaten the count. I don't think he beat the account. And he had no inclination. And like he said to me, I know he knew it because later on, years later, when he went back to title, he said, I should have died. I should have gotten up and died not to lose that title right then and there.

[00:53:09.570] - Todd

What was the crowd's reaction?

[00:53:12.150] - Jerry

Well, the whole crowd, it was pro Alley. There are a number of American celebrities in it who couldn't refrain from posing, even in Africa. When people didn't know who they were. Several American novelists were there.

[00:53:29.310] - Todd

Mormon Mailer and others.

[00:53:32.010] - Jerry

What's his name? The guy that did a wonderful book about pretending to be a football player with alliance. The guy who played Wyatt Earth was there and somebody offered me an interview. And I said, I don't want to interview any of those guys, and I'm not going to let them interview me. I'm here to work. But anyway, it ended. Everybody goes crazy. Now, one of the two most poignant moments I ever had with Ali transpires here after the fight, it pours rain and African rain. If it had rained an hour earlier, there'd have been no fight.

[00:54:15.650] - Jerry

It was incredible. But this is Africa. When it stops, the sun is getting ready to rise. So I say to David, he's gone. And I said, we were so rushed. I like a second shot at this, maybe for a follow up for tomorrow. Let's go find him. And Dave said, Well, you know where he is. There's like, 3000 acres on this military thing. So I said, I think I know where he'll be because I know him. Something about the river is mystic to him. The Congo River.

[00:54:50.750] - Jerry

He's going to go down by the river. I just feel it. I just feel it. So we go back. We go down by the river. We're standing on a little Hill. It's not big, but it's your rise so we can see everything out there. Alley is facing the water and he's looking toward what was once French Congo. His head moved. I know he's yelling. I have no idea what he is. We can't hear him, but we can see it. And we also know whatever it is.

[00:55:24.090] - Jerry

It's not a performance, because as far as he's concerned, nobody is there but him. The river and the crocodiles. That's it. And suddenly he shoves his hands up to the sky in a Rocky pose and he's still yelling, puts his hands downstairs, turns around and walks away, sees us. Don't ask me what tonight meant to me. I couldn't tell you. And if I could, I don't have the words. And if I could, you wouldn't understand him. And I thought to myself, when people ask me the way I like to think of him that moment, thinking he was all alone, arms to the heavens, facing out after having done an impossible deed in that instant, he was the King of the world. (56:20)

The entire world was welcomed by the King during his second reign as heavyweight champ.

Longtime boxing writer Thom Loverro recalls visiting Ali’s training camp as a young reporter.

Thom Loverro

Thom Loverro (18:12): Actually, when I was working for a weekly newspaper up in Strausberg, a different newspaper, weekly newspaper than the first one I talked about, it was in '78 when Ali was fighting the rematch with Spinks. His training camp was at Deer Lake, Pennsylvania, an hour away from me.

Thom Loverro (18:38):

And I went up to Deer Lake one time as a reporter for this weekly newspaper, no one ever heard of. And I met Gene Kilroy, who was Ali's kind of like camp advisor and one of his close advisors. And after Ali worked out, he would always go into his dressing room, and there'd be a bunch of reporters there, Dave Anderson, Pat Putnam, the heavyweights of the business.

Thom Loverro (19:08):

So, this guy, Gene Kilroy, let me into the room, the dressing room as a reporter. So, I'm there with all these heavyweights interviewing Ali. Then I started going up on a regular basis, and everyone got to know me there. Ali in particular got to know me.

Thom Loverro (19:28):

And actually, one time it was just him and I, and he gave me a tour of his camp, including the cabin where he slept with this big, giant handmade bed that was there. So, I had a real affinity for Ali. So, I still hope it wasn't fixed, but-

Todd Jones (19:47):

Do you have a favorite story from those days you were hanging around as a young reporter at Deer Lake?

Thom Loverro (19:52):

Well, that would be it. That would be the time that it was just ... actually in 1980, when Ali came back in that unfortunate fight with Larry Holmes, he was working out again that summer at Deer Lake. And my parents who lived in Florida were up visiting from there at the time. So, I took them to Deer Lake.

Thom Loverro (20:17):

My mom and dad were both boxing fans. And when I was growing up, my mom was not an Ali fan. Like most of her generation were not. She didn't like the big mouth. She didn't like the dancing in the ring the most. She didn't like that part.

Thom Loverro (20:35):

So, after Ali's workout and the workout’s open to everybody. It was remarkable back then that you could just wander in the camp and watch this guy train, and he would talk to the crowds and stuff.

Thom Loverro (20:53):

And so, after his workouts, sometimes he would come out and meet with people, and sometimes he wouldn't. So, my parents and I were all waiting outside his dressing room. We're a crowd of people, and nobody knows if he's coming out or not, and time is going on and on.

Thom Loverro (21:09):

So, my mom reaches into her pocketbook, pulls out this article that I had written about Ali from the previous couple years. I had no idea that she had it, but-

Todd Jones (21:23):

She carried it around in her purse. I love it.

Thom Loverro (21:24):

Like a lot of moms, she had like a scrapbook of everything I had written at that point. So, she starts yelling "Yuhoo, Mr. Ali. Yuhoo, Mr. Ali." And he comes out.

Todd Jones (21:37):

Mr. Ali.

Thom Loverro (21:38):

And she says, “My son wrote this story here about you.” And he recognized me right away. So, he's looking at the story and he says, "Did you write this?" He says, "You're not as dumb as you look, are you?"

Thom Loverro (21:56):

That's classic.

Thom Loverro (21:56):

So, and then he wound up taking pictures with my parents and stuff. So, I loved the guy after that. To know him was to love him. (22:04)

Sports fans especially loved the rivalry between Ali and Joe Frazier.

After Ali won a rematch, the two warriors met for a third time in what became known as the Thrilla in Manila.

It was one of the most brutal heavyweight fights of all time.

Jerry Izenberg recalls being there in the Phillipines on that blazing hot day when Ali survived 14 grueling rounds to win on a technical KO.

Jerry Izenberg

[01:09:16.930] - Todd

The sitting ringside.

[01:09:17.770] - Jerry

And you can hear this now he yells at Frasier. You ain't got no right. Fraser hits with a right hand and he stops. Didn't hurt him. But he had a boxing IQ of like, 9 million. I mean, he said something's wrong here. This guy can't throw a right hand. Okay? He said you ain't got no right hand. You're too old. You can't go to a right hand. You can't do it. And, Fraser, you better go talk to George Ben goes. Here comes another boom. Not if I turn now.

[01:09:52.210] - Jerry

It's like a Wall Street graph. Hours up. Alley is down. No knockouts until the very end when they're almost dead. No clinches. Why are there no clinches? Good question. You think about this the greatest fight ever held. And no clinches. That mean anything. Yeah. Heavyweights. Two days before the fight, the alley group registers a protest with the Commission, the Filipino Boxing Commission. We do not want a Filipino to work this fight as referee. What we want is Zach Clayton. Of course they wanted Zack Clayton, but Zach Clayton loved that alley.

[01:10:36.610] - Jerry

Well, Fudge didn't want Jack Clayton. Fudge had another candidate. I think it was Jay Edson, but they both agreed on the reason no Filipino was big enough to separate these two guys because it's really emotional, right? Rules meeting. I go to the rules meeting, which is usually nothing. But I want to see what happens to the protein. I want to see who's going to work this way because referees have styles too. And that can impact on the fight. So incomes. This guy is a Colonel in the Filipino Army, reaches in his pocket, pulls out this Cannon, puts it on the table.

[01:11:14.710] - Jerry

Biggest gun I ever saw. I don't know what the caliber was. 190. I don't know. And he says, I understand there is some controversy about the official. There will be no controversy. This fight and he taps the gun will be refereed by a Filipino. Any protest? Not me. I'm not going to say that gun out there.

[01:11:36.910] - Todd

Not a word.

[01:11:37.870] - Jerry

Now he brings the referee in. It's a guy named Sonny Padilla, who later moved to Vegas and worked some fights out there and then went to work for the government. Sunny is the biggest Filipino I ever saw in my life. Outside of Roman Gabriel, the Graham's quarterback. He's big, he's broad shouldered and he worked a masterful fight. He's the only guy I ever saw. Caution Ali right at the start. Ali had a habit. Put his hand behind your neck, pull your neck down. Uppercut. He put the hand there.

[01:12:16.630] - Jerry

The upper cut never came because he jumped in and said, Next time I'll throw you out of the Arena, Fraser hit them low. Same round. Next time I'll throw you out of the arena. So they didn't clinch. They were afraid of this guy. It was marvelous. And up and down, up and down, up and down. And now we get to like, the 12th or 13th. I haven't seen the fight for a while. I got a copy of it. I watch it a lot. And now Frager is in trouble because his eye is starting to close both eyes.

[01:12:55.730] - Jerry

Really. But this one particular left one you can't see. And when he goes out for the 12th to 13th. But she said, look, you got to straighten up now. Fraser was in a Crouch fighter. You got to straighten up. I don't want you fighting when you can't see. Or I'm going to stop this. All right. Now, when he straightens up, that's an invitation. Jab, jab jam. Fraser is standing there in the 12th to 13th round. Maybe somewhere is in there. Arms at his side, legs are trembling like wet spaghetti Alley's a foot away.

[01:13:30.350] - Jerry

All he's got to do is walk a foot, push him. Fight over alley. Could not walk that foot. That's how much these guys left in that ring. And when it ended.

[01:13:44.570] - Todd

The 14th round ends. And Neddy Fudge tells Fraser he's going to stop the fight.

[01:13:49.010] - Jerry

Well, he tells no. He knew he'd have trouble, he says to Benton, cut off the gloves. Benton takes his scissor and Fraser gets up. He says, you touch his gloves. I'll kill the both of you and fragrance his son. Your eyesight means a lot more to me than who wins this fight. They stopped the fight. Meanwhile, Killoi who was in the corner. And we disagree on the only thing we've ever disagreed on about Ali. He says Ali had developed a habit because people would jump in the ring and he didn't want to get hurt.

[01:14:27.410] - Jerry

After decision, she would fall to the ground. After two steps, he fell to the ground. And that's my story. And I'm sticking to it.

[01:14:36.410] - Todd

He was so exhausted.

[01:14:37.790] - Jerry

So you don't know whether who knows what would have happened if there was a 15 drop. Thank God there wasn't. I had said in the 12th round to Jerry Lizard was sitting next to me. Let them send these guys home and say they both won. I can't watch this anymore. I mean, it was the most brutal fight I've ever seen in my life. And it ends. And now Ali is walking up the aisle, and it's Dave Anderson, Jerry Whisker and me. We were three guys he recognized immediately.

[01:15:10.850] - Jerry

And when he had to pass us, when he got to us, he leaned in and he said, Fellas, that's the closest thing to death you'll ever see. And he goes by and he wasn't far from wrong. I got to write this a time difference. I got, like, 30 minutes to write a column. To write a story is one thing to write a column with an opinion. Here's how I started that column. I said, Mohammed Ali and Joe Fraser did not fight for the WBC heavyweight Championship here in Manila last night.

[01:15:51.810] - Jerry

Nor did they fight for the Championship of the planet. They fought as though they were on a melting ice flow in a telephone booth. And what they were fighting for was the Championship of each other. And in my opinion, that never has been and never will be settled. That was pretty good.

[01:16:20.410] - Todd

Under the gun, too, man.

[01:16:22.810] - Jerry

If I had time to think, it might not have been that good.

[01:16:25.570] - Todd

Well, the thing was, that was such a bitter rivalry for Frasier. It never really want his bitterness about Ali never went away.

[01:16:34.990] - Jerry

Right?

[01:16:35.230] - Todd

Like, 25 years later.

[01:16:36.370] - Jerry

Ali.

[01:16:38.350] - Todd

Didn'T Ali ask you to tell Frasier?

[01:16:40.990] - Jerry

Well, they had a phony reconciliation at one point, but it was phony. 25 years after the fight. I'm saying still the best fight I ever saw. And I've seen a few thousand fights. Okay, I'm going to do a retrospective 25 years later, see if these guys change any opinions. So I get Sunny Padilla, the referee. I got Angelo. I got Eddie Fudge. I got a couple of other people, and I got the fighters. Now. First I called Ali. He says, I don't know why he's mad at me.

[01:17:24.430] - Jerry

I said, Mohammed, you know Marvis, you've seen him grow up. Marvis came home from school crying Joe's son Marvis. Yeah, because they're calling his father a gorilla because of his father saying, I'll be a thriller and a chill when I get the gorilla in Manila and his son was in tears, how do you expect him to think about you? He said that wasn't my intention. I was trying to sell tickets. I said, My old man taught me never a bullshit, a bullshit. Or you weren't selling tickets.

[01:17:58.910] - Jerry

Those tickets were gone and sorry. But you are an apology. He said, were you going to talk to him? I said, yeah, right after I hang up this phone, I'm calling him and I'm going to tell him everything you said. He said, okay. You tell him. I said, if Marvis was really hurt, I'm sorry about that. It's never my intent to hurt his family. I said, I'll tell him I call up Marvis. And before we go into it, I tell him what I'm going to do.

[01:18:29.790] - Jerry

And he says, you speak to him yet. He would never say Ali, you speak to him. I said, yeah, I spoke to him.

[01:18:40.170] - Todd

This is Joe.

[01:18:40.650] - Jerry

You're talking to Joe is Joe. What did he say? And I told him exactly what he said. He said, that exactly that I said, absolutely. Was he sincere? I think it was. Call him back when we're done and tell him take his apology and shove it as far as we'll go up his ass. That was 25 years after the fight. Now Ali was still alive but couldn't speak years later. And I go to the Boxing Writers dinner. I'm getting some kind of Phony Baloney award or something.

[01:19:21.810] - Jerry

And the table next to me and my wife is Joe Fraser. He leans over and he says to me, you hear him today? You hear him try to talk that's somebody up there giving me justice. Wow. He went to the funeral. I mean, no, he didn't go alley, went to his funeral. That truck would have it. Yeah, but Ally was convinced he knew he went too far. But he was having such a good time and the world was having a great time. The gorilla Manila. They loved it because they didn't think it was going to be any fight joke.

[01:19:59.430] - Todd

They didn't see the pain that caused Frasier.

[01:20:01.230] - Jerry

Oh, no. Absolutely. (1:20:03)

The fights took a toll on the aging Ali. He lost the title to Leon Spinks, then regained it in a 1978 rematch at the Superdome in New Orleans.

Tom Archdeacon has good memories of covering that Ali fight, but his memories of working the bouts that followed are only sad.

Tom Archdeacon

[00:05:50.440] - Speaker 3

Alif three fights when he beat Springs for the title in New Orleans, which was a grand night in the Superdome. There's over 600 people or something, and it's just Joe Fraser sang the national anthem and ringsiders, sylvester Stallone and John Travoltain, Liza Minnelli, all these people. And Ollie comes in, and Ollie had been beaten by Sphinx seven, eight months before that on a split decision. So he got in there and he had trained pretty hard for this, and he got in and he was just kind of like the Ollie of old a little bit. He kind of controlled this young kid. And even there was times I can remember where he broke into the Ollie shuffle. And he must have been 35, 36 years old then. Sphinx was a lot younger, 1112 years younger. And he won a unanimous decision that night. And it was like the whole crowd, it was almost like they just converged on him as he went out of the arena. Just everyone followed him. I can remember through the fight, angelo Dundee, who was my friend from Miami.

[00:07:09.940] - Speaker 2

And he was Ollie's trainer.

[00:07:11.910] - Speaker 3

Right, ollie's trainer. And he started kind of taught and Sphinx during the fight going he would yell across the ring, going, Goodbye, Leon. Goodbye, Leon. And that's what it turned out to be.

[00:07:28.090] - Speaker 2

Where were you sitting during a fight that you could hear that you had to be close, right?

[00:07:31.750] - Speaker 3

I was close. I was probably in the second row of the sports writers, and I was up real tight. But, I mean, I also talked to Dundee about it afterwards, but then I covered him. Two fights he never should have had. The homes fight in Vegas. And then the last fight when he fought Trevor Burbuk in Nassau, Bahamas, and that was just a terrible travesty.

[00:07:59.380] - Speaker 2

What was it like? Tell me about that night.

[00:08:01.840] - Speaker 3

It was so sad. It was just a ghost of himself. When he came out, the whole production was screwed up from start to finish. I mean, it was like an amateur hour and they forgot to open the gates. The crowd was outside and break. The gates are locked and they couldn't get the crowd. And then finally people started crawling over the walls. Finally, he comes in. Now, there were several other pretty good fights on there. Ernie Shavers fought it up, but a bunch of different guys fought on the card. But then when he came out, he just didn't even look himself, and he's fighting Trevor Burbuck, a young guy, kind of unknown, and this was his hero. Berwick didn't even want to hit him at the end. And it was hot that night and it was outdoors. It's like when you see these guys, it's like ending at some circus in some dusty town or something like that. I remember after the fight, he's sitting I always remember this scene. I got in the dressing room right afterwards and John Travolta is there kneeling at Ollie's. It was a surreal scene. Travolta is kneeling in front of Ollie, holding his hands, weeping, and Ali is consoling him.

[00:09:15.110] - Speaker 2

So John Travolta was crying?

[00:09:17.980] - Speaker 3

Yeah, he was crying. He was on his knees in front of Ollie, holding his hand, and it was just a sad scene. And then finally Ollie retired after that. And then I'd see him around. He didn't come around Miami much after that. Those are the two. And the Homes flight was just another satellite. Yeah, he had done something to lose a lot of weight, and he had no sweat that night and he just wasn't himself. (9:54)

Jerry Izenberg shared a poignant story from covering Ali’s loss to Larry Holmes in 1980.

Jerry Izenberg

[00:56:20.230] - Jerry

That was one. The second was the homes fight. The home's fight was a horror, right? I was in Alley's room the night before the fight, alone the two of us. And he said to me, who are you picking? I said, Mohammed, listen to me carefully. I didn't come here to talk about the fight. I came here to tell you. I would think this might be your last fight. And like everything else about him, I was wrong before it one more time. And I just want to tell you we had a hell of a ride, didn't we?

[00:56:53.710] - Jerry

He says it ain't over. He jumps up, rips his shirt open, buttons flying. He stands there arms like this son of a bitch. He looked like he did the night before. He Fort listed. He said, now, what do you think? And I said, Mohammed, you could have done that in the European house. What I didn't know was he'd been taking diuretics for a month. He was so weak when he got in the ring he could barely lift his arms. I didn't know that after that fight, which is horrible, one of the most unprofessional.

[00:57:29.110] - Jerry

I like to think it was the only unprofessional moment in my life. But by the fifth or 6th round, he hadn't thrown a punch in my opinion. And I'm yelling. I jumped to my feet and I yelled to Richard Green, referee, Richard stopped the fight. You're going to get him killed. And then I sit down and realize what I done. I mean, how unprofessional is that? And they stopped the fight too, by the way, for your listeners information. It wasn't Angelo Dundee who stopped that fight.

[00:58:00.730] - Jerry

It was Herbert Mohammed, the manager who was sitting five rows back and got a go for it and said, Go down here, you tell Angelo this stops now.

[00:58:15.830] - Todd

It's a horrible night.

[00:58:17.090] - Jerry

All right.

[00:58:17.510] - Todd

Now when Homes beating.

[00:58:18.710] - Jerry

Yeah, I gamble. I lose because that's why these buildings in Vegas do are standing because they make the guy at the door knew me. I sneak into the showroom and Sinatra is there featured attraction. And by the way, in the sign outside, Sinatra is Second Banana. It was Ally Homes on top. And then that was Sinatra in the showroom. And he's talking about he just came from Ali's room, and he was a great man. And we said, I don't want to hear this shit. So I walk out and I gamble.

[00:58:59.070] - Jerry

I lose. I gamble some more and I lose some more. Now I'm really pissed off at every I'm pissed off with Caesars. I'm pissed off at Alley for having four. I'm pissed off with the fact that Homes was in an embarrassing position. He didn't want to be in.

[00:59:13.230] - Todd

Yeah, because Homes loved Alley.

[00:59:15.210] - Jerry

So I go into love them so much. So when Alley gave him a black eye as a sparring partner, he wouldn't put beef steak on it. He wanted everybody to see the black eye when he got home because it came from Alley. All right. So I go into the men's room. It's like 330 in the morning. Elderly Afro American gentleman hands me a towel. When I go to wash my hands, I say, elderly today he'd be a kid to me. But back then he had lines on his face.

[00:59:49.050] - Jerry

He was old and compared to what I was, I was in my 40s. I said to him, do you mind if I ask you a question? He said, no, go right ahead. I said, Did you bet on this fight? He said, you bet. I did. And I said, who did you bet on? He looked at me and didn't say anything. He looked at me again, and then he said, I bet I'm a man who gave me dignity, greatest eulogy I ever heard. For all the anywhere.

[01:00:25.030] - Jerry

Anytime. Those were two moments that I treasure a lot of moments because we had crazy times no matter where we went and it was a circus. (1:00:35)

Ali became even more famous and beloved after his boxing career ended because of his humanitarian work and his public battle against his own Parkinson’s disease.

Mary Schmitt Boyer covered many Olympics – and among those games, one moment stands out from 1996.

Mary Schmitt Boyer

[00:36:45] - Todd

So when you think about your experiences in the olympics, what comes to mind?

[00:36:52.100] - MAry Schmitt Boyer

Oh, god, mohammed ali lighting the torch in atlanta. I was sitting with my friend, my good friend don burke. He was with newark, I believe, at the time, and everybody had been rumored, and as he approached it, you weren't quite sure he was going to and everyone clapped. It was the most amazing thing I have ever seen.

[00:37:24.230] - Todd

Why? What was it about that moment that got you?

[00:37:26.840] - MAry Schmitt Boyer

I was a big ollie fan to begin with, just because of how he conducted himself. He was unlike most athletes at the time, he was a political figure and made his opinions known. And he was really smart and really funny. And I was just a big fan of how he I actually stood in line the Super Bowl was in Minnesota in 1992 and he was signing autographs, and I actually stood in line to get his autograph. I was just a big fan. And so just watching him he did climb the steps, right? He climbed the steps.

[00:38:10.210] - Todd

I think he came out from behind in the shadows on the platform itself.

[00:38:15.360] - MAry Schmitt Boyer

Anyway, his Parkinson's, you know, you weren't sure he could actually live. And just to see him overcome his physical liabilities, to do this unbelievably symbolic gesture and the reaction that he got from the crowd when the crowd realized it was that was probably my number one sports moment. It was just fantastic. Everyone clapped. Everyone stood up. It was unbelievable. Basically. (38:52)

Dave Kindred recalls being there that night as a sports columnist for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

Dave Kindred

[00:31:00] – Dave

But I think now the Olympics probably in 96. I think when he lit the torch there, I think it caused a revival of interest in Ali. And I think then there was a full reconsideration of how does a man go from being the most reviled man in America to practically a living Saint? And I think he did that a lot of it, because he soldiered on through this damage that he was suffering without ever complaining about it. He saw it as a test sent to him by Allah.

[00:32:12.760] - Dave

And I think then to see a man persevere and without crying about it, without blaming anybody about it, I think then they saw the basic goodness that was in Ali, and that became very clear then to just see him like that torch. I think everybody then had a different feel for who he was and who he had been.

[00:32:45.430] - Todd

What was that moment like for you as a columnist in Atlanta, to see that?

[00:32:49.710] - Dave

Well, I don't think I saw it the way everybody else saw it. I was fearful for him. I didn't know what was going to happen. I had no secret information about it. But when I saw him there, literally, Todd, I don't think I wrote this, but literally it was, my God, what is going to happen? Because he was holding the torch, but he was trembling so much, and I'd seen him tremble in other instances, but I'd never seen him standing on top of a tower holding fire in his hand. And I could see that he couldn't do what he wanted to do. When he got nervous, anytime he was nervous, he shook more and he was really shaking. Then I thought he was going to drop the torch. I fear he was going to drop the torch and light his cell phone fire and then you could see the fire coming up the torch onto his arm. I still get emotional about that because everybody else was just in awe. But I don't think they saw the trembling. I don't think they saw that. They may have seen it on replay, they may have suddenly noticed it, but I noticed it from the start.

[00:34:20.090] - Dave

It seemed like 15 minutes before he could put that towards where it was supposed to be. It was probably 15 seconds, 20 seconds, but it scared me. But everybody else saw it and I did too, really, that bought them. I was just scared at the moment. It was just a great moment in his life. It was a great moment in America's life for this man to be forgiven, even by people who had despised him. Of course, now he was defenseless, now he was helpless, now he was not going to hurt us anymore. So all was forgiven. But it was a great moment that everybody, I think whoever knew Ali, everybody who ever saw him at his best member, would remember forever. I certainly will. (35:23)

Any moment with Ali proved special for the writers fortunate to be around him.

That was true for George Diaz, a longtime Florida boxing writer, and a former colleague of mine at the Cincinnati Post.

And it was true for me, too.

We’ll close this special episode with George and I sharing our own encounters with The Greatest.

George Diaz

[00:34:06] - Todd

I know you got to spend a lot of years covering boxing, major championship fights. And I know you came across a lot of characters in that field, including the great Muhammad Ali. When did you cross paths with Muhammad?

[00:34:20.870] - George Diaz

I crossed paths with him several times. It was all after he had retired. I'm old, but not that old. So one time it just said a few times in Miami Beach down. And, you know, it was I don't know who was at the Fifth Street gym. I remember being at a hotel another time. I was in Japan for a for a fight for the Tyson fight. He was there for the Tyson tub's fight. But my best and closest encounter with him was in when I was at the Post, he was doing a memorabilia show in Dayton, Ohio, of all places.

[00:35:02.840] - George Diaz

So I got my boxing contacts. I got it squared up that I would go there. And it's as we like to say, it's a room service column when you got Muhammad Ali in the mix. So I just going to go down there, see what I get. And of course, I was going to hope to be able to talk to him a little bit. And so the guy tells me his manager goes, well, we're going to go back to the hotel, so why don't you ride with us to the hotel?

[00:35:30.710] - George Diaz

Sure, I'm in. Right. And unfortunately, I was I would have worked it out one way. I don't care what I would have gotten in that in that cab, in that van, no matter what. But I have my car with me. But my girl was dating at the time. She was with me, so she was able to drive my car over there. And actually, she came up with me and I talked with him a little bit on the.

[00:35:54.650] - George Diaz

In the van, and he had Parkinson's, but he still has as its majestic presence about him despite that disease or he had anyway. And then he came up and he did a couple of magic tricks with selling stuff. He used to do, you know, pretending he was levitating and all that. But it's kind of neat. Muhammad Ali, do magic tricks for you in whatever room, whatever it was at the Holiday Inn and date. I don't have that in my career.

[00:36:20.790] - George Diaz

Bingo card at any point.

[00:36:22.460] - Todd

You know, I actually went to a might have been the same year because I was at the Cincinnati Post, too. But there was a symposium about Muhammad Ali at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. And I went to hear Robert Lipsyte New York Times speak. And Robert was speaking for about ten minutes in this little classroom. There's probably a dozen of us in this classroom listening to Robert Lipsyte and about ten minutes in the door opened and Muhammad Ali walked in.

[00:36:49.040] - Todd

Oh, my gosh.

[00:36:50.420] - Todd

And it was like everybody just stood up. Like we were just overcome by this this like totally unannounced, you know, appearance by Ali. And I'll never forget, he squeezed himself into this little like student's desk. And he listened to Lipsyte for a while and he actually signed crayons for us. That's the like the only time I ever got an autograph because I figured I wasn't working that night. And, you know, I'm going to get when I still have it.

[00:37:16.490] - Todd

So so Ali could just like magic, right? Like he's doing magic for you. He could just appear magically in places were like, oh, my gosh, it's Ali. And he just walked into a room. (37:28)

-end-