That's So Raven

[Music Playing]

Hannah Leach:

Welcome to Sleepover Cinema, where we analyze the TV shows that created the collective unconscious of those who want a fake goose feather trench coat. I am Hannah Leach, a writer, musician, audio producer, and utterly confused about what was considered fat in 2005.

Audrey Leach:

And I'm Audrey Leach, director, editor, producer, and member of Boys ‘N Motion. We are the sister duo, also known as Too Pink Productions, and we haven't stopped thinking about these onscreen experiences since we first had them.

Hannah Leach:

We're going to explore the good, the bad, and the nonsensical of the media that first inspired our love for pop culture in an attempt to answer the question; is this stuff actually good? And at the end of the day, do we really care if it is?

Audrey Leach:

Today, we are talking about the Disney Channels, That’s So Raven.

[That’s So Raven Music Playing]

Hannah Leach:

Hello, hello dear listeners, I am recording from my Chicago apartment today for the very first time. Very exciting.

Audrey Leach:

And I'm recording from the same apartment as last week.

Hannah Leach:

Ooh, so video viewers, you can see I have my makeup table set up, that's basically the only thing I have fully set up. But first things first, I ordered a pink L-shaped gamer desk, and I ordered one of those tabletop boom things. So, I am never going to have to reset up my shit ever again after that. And I'm really excited.

I've been having a really good time. I'm really excited to be here. New eras for both of us. It's all good times. And also, knock on wood this is my first time using our Wi-Fi for anything this hefty. So, wish me luck on that front.

[Music Playing]

Audrey Leach:

And instead of doing question for the culture …

Speaker 1:

The culture’s super sick right now.

Speaker 2:

It's actually really bad, period.

Audrey Leach:

The other day I asked on our Instagram story, if you had any questions for us, Q&A moment and I got some good ones.

So, the first one is from Becky, and she asked, “What are your next creative projects outside of the pod?” And that is such a funny question because it's the number one question that I feel most creatives are asking themselves, which is, “In this climate, what can really be done?”

Hannah Leach:

Well, I have a couple things I could say. It's not a Too Pink Productions collab, but we're 80% of the way through recording a new album with my band, so that should exist before too long. It's going to be really good. What our end game is, I have absolutely no idea.

And then since I started moving, I've been putting in a lot of effort to record a lot of sound, conversations, background noise, things like that, and I want to try to create something out of that.

And then lastly, my cousin Erin and her friend Morgan invited me to be in a little writers group thing and I pushed myself last night to try to write like a memoir style thing, which I haven't done in a really long time. But I really like writing about things that have actually happened in my life.

So, I'm trying new things, and that is exciting to me because I haven't done that in a really long time because my job was sucking me dry.

Audrey Leach:

So many things. I feel like I have 45 things in my head, and then maybe like five things that are actually happening or in the process of happening.

One aspect is just that I'm always editing different things. A lot of times it's music video stuff or commercial type stuff or … yeah, I'm doing more fun things now than I was also when I had a full-time job.

But that, and then I'm still in the midst of producing with Hunter his film that he wrote and directed called From the Flesh, which we actually found out this morning got into another film festival. So, that's fun.

Hannah Leach:

I would say another creative project we are experiencing outside of the pod is kindling our new lives in new places in our mind's eye with our creative approach. I like that. I think that's valid.

Audrey Leach:

Oh, interior decorating.

Hannah Leach:

There you go. That's what I'm saying.

Audrey Leach:

That counts. There are some ideas and things that we had going that died and that may or may not be revived, but we'll see.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

Also, we used to talk about potentially adapting your play and stuff like that, so-

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, that's true. That's not off the table, not off the table. We're entering a new season of life, so we will see what happens. But thank you for asking that, Becky, that's so nice. I'm glad you are curious.

Audrey Leach:

So, this comes from Kirk, I have no idea if we're right or wrong with this, but he said F. Mary kill Gordo, Darren, Aidan. Which when I first read that I was like, “What could that mean?” Gordo obviously Lizzie McGuire, right? Darren? As told by Ginger, I would assume. And Aidan-

Hannah Leach:

And we think yeah.

Audrey Leach:

And Aidan is the only person named Aidan in anything we've covered is Sex and the City. So, maybe that is it.

Hannah Leach:

I think that's it.

Audrey Leach:

But two of those people are children and one of them is the middle-aged.

Hannah Leach:

Okay. Suspend your disbelief with the age thing. Let's talk conceptually.

Audrey Leach:

I guess. I kind of stand Darren.

Hannah Leach:

Same.

Audrey Leach:

Maybe it's like Mary, Darren, F Aidan, kill Gordo.

Hannah Leach:

I think I actually agree with that 100%. I don't like Gordo and I don't care about Gordo.

Audrey Leach:

I like him, but he didn't really get to grow up enough for me to not see him as a little baby. Next from Vegan Fries on Instagram: “What are your favorite things to watch on YouTube or must watch YouTuber?”

Hannah Leach:

Oh boy.

Audrey Leach:

You know what, I think it might be a little bit embarrassing how much YouTube I still watch in the year 2023. A lot of people go to TikTok for that kind of mindless entertainment, but I'm still a YouTube girl.

Even though the things that show up on the subscription feed are so much worse than they used to be because they put shorts on your subscription feed because they're trying to mimic like a TikTok effect, and you know how they have reels.

Like if you go on the app on your phone, it's more like TikTok. I don't give a shit about that. I like long form, numb my brain content. I don’t want to have to actively be scrolling.

Hannah Leach:

Same. We're on the exact same page with that. Okay, well, we got to kick it off with ASMR, can't ignore that. So, Goodnight Moon and Gentle Whispering are my faves. Also, this girl Oceania, I just started watching. You know what that is?

Audrey Leach:

You just started watching?

Hannah Leach:

Because I just got the Aquamarine one sent to me.

Audrey Leach:

I kid you not, I started watching her channel when I was like probably 20.

Hannah Leach:

Whoa, otherwise, there's this guy that Josh and I love. His channel is called Any Austin and he does this thing where he goes around highly populated towns in different video games and conducts an unemployment report.

So, he goes around, and he tries to figure out if — like he'll walk up to a character and be like, “Do they have a job or not?” And try to crack the code and those are really enjoyable.

Audrey Leach:

Well, there's the video essayists that I watch a lot, and I'll even rewatch their videos just to listen better or whatever. Like Yhara Zayd who's been on our podcast, ContraPoints videos I really do enjoy because they're so well made and researched.

I love it when people explain to me things that I might understand from a surface level, but I haven't done deep dive on, so I enjoy that. We also need to shout out the Disney YouTubers.

Hannah Leach:

Oh yes, yes, yes. So, Defunctland, Poseidon Entertainment. I also, I don't know if you watch this Audrey, I used to watch a shitload of Disney food blog for no reason. Did you ever watch that channel?

Audrey Leach:

I mean, probably it's like years ago.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, I have no intention to go to Disney anytime soon and yet it's like, “Go in the middle of April to get the beignet from the New Orleans Square, you won't regret it.” It’s like top 10 best springtime foods or something, and I am not going but I just watch it for some reason.

Audrey Leach:

The answer is there's tons. I still watch a lot of YouTubers and I've also noticed a really cute resurgence of YouTubers that got really popular like 10 years ago coming back to their channels that have been desolate for a few years and just doing life updates and stuff. It's very cute.

Hannah Leach:

You know who I think about sometimes?

Audrey Leach:

Michelle Phan?

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. I was such a Michelle Phan girl in early high school. I remember I was there when the Bad Romance tutorial dropped.

Audrey Leach:

Me too, yeah.

Hannah Leach:

The low death of it all. It was so good.

Audrey Leach:

We've got a bunch more questions but we're just going to make them last for a few weeks because why not?

Hannah Leach:

Yes. It's time to talk about That's So Raven, which has a lot of interesting stuff to discuss so I'm looking forward to talking about it today.

That's So Raven premiered on January 17th, 2003 on the Disney Channel and it ended on November 10th, 2007. There were four seasons and 100 episodes, and actually, That's So Raven made history as the first Disney Channel show ever to get 100 episodes. Up until this point, it was a 64-episode cutoff interestingly.

And each episode was 22 to 24 minutes long. The show was produced for the Disney Channel by McNamara Brookwell Entertainment. Sean McNamara and David Brookwell collaborated on, Even Stevens, That's So Raven.

Just for kicks the Even Stevens movie, Raise Your Voice Classic, Bring It On: Fight to the Finish and much more stuff that was a little bit past our time.

Audrey Leach:

Well, do you remember Sean McNamara directed the Bratz movie, the live action?

Hannah Leach:

I did not remember that off the top of my head.

Audrey Leach:

Also, I heard a really interesting fun fact the other day that you might've seen it too, but this is really relevant. Which is, okay, so do you remember when Hannah Montana got to the fourth season, and they renamed it Hannah Montana Forever in Disney Channel contracts?

It became a thing that if you go past three seasons, all of the actors would then be required to be paid to scale under the same programming title. There'd be a huge pay increase. And so, when we thought that Hannah Montana Forever, or the retitling had anything to do with making it special for the last season, it actually was about not paying them more.

They did the same thing with Liv and Maddie, which was Dove Cameron's show. They've done it several times. But I think that that became a thing after That’s So Raven because this is all completely speculation, but I could see them get into a fourth season of That’s So Raven.

Everyone getting substantially more money and then them kind of being like, “We don't want to do that again.” Like something along those lines of, “Let's cut the costs of this because none of their shows usually go to a fourth season.”

Hannah Leach:

And then lastly, Dennis Rinsler and Marc Warren were also a producing duo on That’s So Raven, they were the team behind Full House, Even Stevens and Cory in the House. So, Even Stevens was really the overarching thing between all these men and That's So Raven, obviously.

Audrey Leach:

Okay. Synopsis from Rotten Tomatoes:

“No ordinary teenager, Raven Baxter can see glimpses of the future. Watch her schemes and misadventures as she enlists the help of friends including best friends Eddie and Chelsea to change life's little outcomes. Raven's younger brother Cory is obsessed with money and creates get-rich-quick schemes to try to earn cash.”

That's not all he does, dang.

Hannah Leach:

I know.

Audrey Leach:

That's so minimizing.

Common Sense Media gives That’s So Raven, 3 out of 5 stars, (that's kind of rude).

“Appropriate for ages eight and up. Parents need to know that Raven is a good role model. She can see the future which makes for klutzy situations. Overall, she's a conscientious teen, is very involved with her family and friends. Raven's focus like many teens is on clothes, shopping and boys, but not excessively.

The show has typical teen dating, flirting and crushes but no sex. Families can talk about Raven's psychic powers. The series treats her ability to see the future as quite plausible as opposed to make-believe and younger kids may be confused.

How do kids think they'd cope with similar ability? Would it be fun or problematic? Families might also talk about what makes Raven such a positive role model.”

Hannah Leach:

That makes me want to say two things. The first thing has to do with what parents need to know. I would push back on the stereotype that many teens focus is on clothes, shopping, and boys.

I feel like boys can fit in there, but clothes and shopping, I don't think that's actually real. And then the second thing is about the psychic powers, I feel like-

Audrey Leach:

Re psychic powers.

Hannah Leach:

Re psychic powers unless I missed something major, they really don't delve into basically any of the logic around the psychicness.

Audrey Leach:

I love that.

Hannah Leach:

I wish there was even a little bit more.

Audrey Leach:

It's like something that they dealt with offscreen before the show even starts because as we'll talk in the second half, it's like, “Everyone knows and this is normal, it's not a secret. Everybody just knows that Raven has visions and they're always right,” it's just funny.

Hannah Leach:

Getting into the cast. Okay, I did a shitload of stuff on Raven-Symone because she's a very interesting figure.

Audrey Leach:

Extremely.

Hannah Leach:

I could've done way more research on her, but I figured that Audrey, you would probably have things to add also as we went along. I'm just going to start with the facts.

So, Raven entered the American mainstream by playing the role of Olivia on The Cosby Show. She was the cute little kid on The Cosby Show. Then of course, continued that legacy with That’s So Raven and now, Raven's Home, but she also of course was in the Cheetah Girls, Kim Possible, Princess Diaries 2 and Zenon and Zenon: Z3.

Also, I discovered that between her Cosby era and That's So Raven era, she did a couple songs, and she had this music video to a song called With a Child's Heart.

And she's hip-hop dancing in an alley talking about how she loves someone with a child's heart and it's really creepy-seeming, it's like a sassy hip hop banger and she's talking about loving with a child's heart. I just don't like that.

[With a Child’s Heart Music Playing]

I also discovered in the process of looking at her credits that she was in this lifetime original movie in 2007 called For One Night. So, the concept of the movie is that she lives in Louisiana and her high school has had segregated proms for the entirety of the existence of the high school.

And I tried to find a trailer for it, and the first video I found was exterior of a southern plantation-looking house with a gigantic lawn jockey in the front yard. And then it was like all these white southern parents talking about how segregation is a good thing — and this is not set in the past, this is set in 2007.

It just seems extremely bizarre, and I have a link to the full movie in our notes, and I feel like it would be a really good episode if we decided to go there because it seems really interesting. If you guys have seen For One Night, please let us know because it doesn't even seem like something real.

Raven starred in Sister Act on Broadway in 2012, which I didn't know and now she's on Raven's Home and she hosted, or she co-hosted The View for a year. Now, she's almost more of a public personality than an actress.

So, here are just some facts about Raven, some interesting things that have happened involving her. So, she is a lesbian and she kind of falls into the Ellen DeGeneres pride figure type in that (Audrey's scrounging her face) she's not universally beloved by the community, she's kind of polarizing.

A fun fact about her is that she was a guest star on the first episode or second episode of RuPaul's Drag Race All Stars 2, and has single-handedly been credited to be the reason why Adore Delano dropped out of the competition.

Male:

So, a critique started: “Adore said to Raven, ‘I loved you on The View,’ to which Raven swiftly responded with, ‘Well, you're not going to love me after this.’”

Hannah Leach:

So, she was also the co-host of The View for a year as I said which did not go without controversy. For example, she got a lot of shit because in a segment on The View, they were talking about judging people based on their names, and Raven said that she would never hire someone named watermelondrea, and her whole relationship to race is really, really, really interesting.

And obviously, we're two white girls so we're only going to be able to bring as much nuance to that conversation as is possible for us.

Another interesting thing, so when Raven's Home came up and they revived the show, Disney offered to make Raven a lesbian. And this isn't a controversy, this is just an interesting thing. She said no and basically, was like Raven is a cis straight woman and that's okay. Like that's just who she is.

Now, Raven has a podcast with her wife Miranda Pearman-Maday, who is a white woman just as a side note and was just a regular person before she met Raven, as far as I can tell through my research. On that podcast, Raven has said that she believes that she's psychic as a real-life person (interesting).

Audrey Leach:

I would too if I was in her shoes.

Hannah Leach:

A big thing with Raven is you hear her talk a lot about her weight and how she was hyper-scrutinized by Disney. She talked about how she wore three sets of spanx at the same time, when she was a teenager.

Apparently, she also got two breast reductions before she turned 18. Her body was just like a big point of contention for people.

Also, as you guys know that it's Raining Teens Magazine cover. I found this interview of her talking about how she was so shocked that they wanted her to be on the cover for that and that all the other girlies were in their little tiny outfits and she felt insecure about it. She's just lived a really interesting life, even if she is polarizing and I appreciate her existence.

Audrey Leach:

I mean, literally she started on The Cosby Show.

Hannah Leach:

Right.

Audrey Leach:

She has been through a lot. A lot of different cultural moments and people using her as a scapegoat for a million conversations, how annoying that must be. Like you had to have a pretty thick skin to do that.

Hannah Leach:

Okay, next on this cast is Orlando Brown as Eddie Thomas. Best known for Major Payne, Thirteen, Safe Harbor, That's So Raven. He was on Raven's Home for a second but then had a very hard fall from grace.

I don't really feel the need to get into the details, you can look it up if you want to, but like drugs, arrest, child star shit, you could guess.

Next, we have Anneliese van der Pol as Chelsea. She was in the Bratz movie, but moreover Anneliese is such a musical theater girl.

She was the last bell in Beauty and the Beast on Broadway, which I found to be really cute. I just love her. And then also, do you remember her Disney Channel song, A Day in The Sun?

[A Day in the Sun Music Playing]

And then we have Kyle Massey as Cory Baxter. He is also in Life is Rough, Cory in the House, which of course, is a That's So Raven spinoff, and recently, was in the show Millennials. Also, he sang the theme song for the cartoon Yin Yang Yo, which I forgot existed until this very morning.

Then we have Rondell Sheridan as Victor Baxter, AKA dad. He is also in Raven's Home and Minor Adjustments and honestly-

Audrey Leach:

Cory in the House.

Hannah Leach:

Oh yeah, of course, and Cory in the House. And weirdly, he didn't have that many credits, so I don't really know what his T is, but I really like him in this show. So, thank you Rondell.

And then lastly, we have T’Keyah Crystal Keymah as Tanya Baxter, AKA mom. She was on Cosby, so not The Cosby Show, but the one after that for a ton of episodes. She was the only woman to star in all five seasons of In Living Color.

Fun facts, she won Ms. Black Illinois and was first runner up in the Ms. Black America Pageant. And in her time on In Living Color, she wore her hair naturally, which was very rare for the time, and is revered as a natural hair icon among black women.

Memories of this show — the show started when I was in second grade actually, and I remembered it being a lot more annoying than it actually is. I went into this being like, “I'm not going to enjoy watching it.” And that was-

Audrey Leach:

Why?

Hannah Leach:

Not the case. I think it's just the catch phrasification of Disney Channel. Like how they made her say like, “Oh snap,” by the end.

Audrey Leach:

I love it.

Hannah Leach:

That stuff always was corny to me, I just couldn't take it.

Audrey Leach:

There's elements to my sense of humor that I genuinely do think got some of their bearing from That’s So Raven. To me, the show is like everything. It was probably my favorite to watch on Disney Channel, more than any other.

But I've been rewatching it recently with Hunter, and what we realized is that we kind of don't remember season one that much, but season three, like the … you know how they would change the edit for the theme song?

The season three theme song edit is the one that I had ingrained. So, I think that is the season where I really checked in. I mean, I feel like all the memories and stuff are just going to be things we talk about in the second half.

Hannah Leach:

For some reason, I associated Chelsea with you, I don't really know why, but-

Audrey Leach:

She's so dumb though.

Hannah Leach:

I know, that's why I don't know why I tie them together.

[Music Playing]

So, I guess we'll just save most of our memories for the second half because they'll just come up organically. So, you can watch all of That’s So Raven on Disney+, that's what we both did.

Audrey Leach:

Be right back.

Hannah Leach:

Welcome back, it is time to talk about our little tour through the wild world of That’s So Raven. So, we started with the pilot episode, which aired on January 17th, 2003. It was called Mother Dearest.

The synopsis is “Raven's big mouth earns her a parent-teacher conference after school.”

What do we think about this one?

Audrey Leach:

So, immediately in the first scene I was like if you handed this material to other actors, it would be just a completely different show. I know that sounds like an obvious statement.

It is very rare to find young actors who are so clear about physical comedy and tone. That's why there's an entire genre of Disney Channel acting. It can be very basic, and just like the nuance brought from second one, like the first second of the show, she knows exactly what she's going for, and it's just perfect.

I think it's so genuinely funny compared to other DCOMs — not DCOMs, Disney Channel shows.

Hannah Leach:

I think that even when I was a kid, I had some sense of the fact that she was almost overqualified to be in the position she was in. She was just such a pro already and almost like a stage actress in how big she made things. And I always appreciated that about her. I kind of thought she was a ham at times.

Audrey Leach:

And also, she was a young person who was I'm sure extremely tired and like literally tired. So, she definitely probably went on autopilot a lot. And that's where you start to get those more canned type of performances. Where she's just like, “Oh snap, oh snap, oh snap, oh snap.”

Hannah Leach:

Well, also the writing is not really spectacular, so I'm sure-

Audrey Leach:

I think it's good for a Disney show.

Hannah Leach:

The thing is, I don't have that much to compare it to because I haven't watched any contemporary Disney stuff ever.

Audrey Leach:

Again, I love to bring up — I love to get on my soapbox about situational comedy, but they are pretty good at setting up comedic situations for her to react to, instead of a verbal punchline.

Hannah Leach:

I think with Suite Life of Zach and Cody for example, everything is really contingent upon living in a hotel and the ensemble cast.

Audrey Leach:

Well, it's very much like zany random. That is so much of the humor on our children's shows when we were kids was like random dancing, stuff like that.

Like let's bring in the most obscene thing we can think of and try to laugh based off the shock instead of laughing based off of this is … there's like dramatic irony or something. She's just a funny performer, her facial expressions alone.

Hannah Leach:

I think the pilot does a really good job of setting up that a big part of the show is going to be about disguises.

I really enjoy how much they clearly trusted Raven to pull off a prosthetic throughout this entire thing. And how clearly she did not feel like — imagine putting Miley Cyrus in a legit prosthetic man, in man drag. I don't know if anyone else could possibly have been as comfortable as Raven clearly was, just having fun with it.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, and being that age and having that level of ability is kind of stunning. Like there is not a young person today who … I mean, they do exist obviously, but not one that I can think of that is currently famous as a young adult or a teen who would have that level of freedom because social media adds a lot to that.

But the whole thing of self-perception and self-consciousness, those are the years when all that stuff is forming. And so, for her to be so carefree or at least outwardly carefree, is really impressive. I feel like she just had this sense of responsibility that was far higher than just herself. It's literally named after her, so she knows she has to perform.

Hannah Leach:

She was listed as a producer by the end of the series, so she definitely stepped into her power.

Audrey Leach:

Something I want to talk about is the fact that they started the show on handheld is really interesting-

Hannah Leach:

I noticed that too.

Audrey Leach:

When they first walk into the hallway, it's handheld and I was like, “That’s cool.” Also, you know how we always talk about how little brothers in shows, they're always plotting and evil for some reason.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

Why is it that every little brother has to be evil and plotting? I actually think we should reconsider. Not that I have a little brother, but there are other kinds.

Hannah Leach:

I mean, there's also, if you think of Megan from Drake and Josh, she was scheming too. I think the pesky little sibling thing for some reason is a real standby trope.

Audrey Leach:

It is.

Hannah Leach:

Is it a misrepresentation of little siblings?

Audrey Leach:

I don't know, kind of. But by the time the show ended, it seems like based off what I saw in the rewatch, that Cory also had some of his own storylines. So, that's good.

I just feel like as long as they get their own storyline every once in a while, it's fine. But I don't know, I wasn't evil or plotting. I wasn't plotting.

Hannah Leach:

No, you were the opposite. You were exposing plots left and right.

Audrey Leach:

I feel like we need that kind of sibling representation where it's not adversaries, I guess.

Hannah Leach:

You know what represents that perfectly is Freaks and Geeks. That's good sibling representation for sure.

Audrey Leach:

That is good. Because it's not like they treat each other perfectly, but they do have authentic moments with each other where it's like, “We're human beings, you can kind of step out of the younger/older sibling role and just be like you're going through something or whatever.”

Hannah Leach:

Josh and I are watching that show right now, and he has an older sister, and he was saying that he feels like that's the most accurate older sister, younger brother representation he's seen.

Audrey Leach:

I honestly think it is. Like Judd Apatow must have an older sister because it's really good.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, agreed. I really, as a viewer — and this runs through the entire show and we're going to come back to this in the episode about race. The entire show, I'm like they're kind of acting post-racial, but they are this black family and you're waiting for there to be more of an in joke or more black culture infused into it.

But it's the Disney Channel so they kind of won't go there. But then if you even think of The Proud Family, they have done it before. I just feel like this show occupies a really strange pocket in the black family show landscape because it's on Disney Channel.

Audrey Leach:

It was just a huge progress though for Disney Channel. And honestly, something we've talked about in the past, I am not sure how it compares to their programming this year or in the past few years. I feel like their level of black programming went way down for a long time.

There was a golden age and Raven had a huge part of that. Because she proved to these old white guys basically, that there was huge demand and popularity for black-led shows, both family shows and standalone. I feel like Raven gave way for True Jackson, VP and gave way to Zendaya also.

Hannah Leach:

That's interesting. That also just reminds me of how on Nickelodeon they had Keenan and Kel and all that, and Lil Romeo and all those shows. And I think they had Taina also. Should we move on to the next one? I feel like we didn't really say that much about the episode itself.

Audrey Leach:

Well, it's really just an intro to the characters, nothing all that notable happens, but what is notable is that Chelsea is not in it.

Hannah Leach:

I tried to look up why and I did not discover it.

Audrey Leach:

I have a feeling that if I were to guess that Chelsea was not a character in the initial pilot, and she was not … well, obviously she wasn't, she's not in it. Like her entire character was not … it was not going to be a friendship trio.

But my guess is that after they filmed the pilot and did audience testing or got executive feedback or something like that, I bet you that they wanted to throw a bone to the white girls type of thing. Do you know what I mean? As attempt to get more people to watch. I just have a feeling that that is true.

Hannah Leach:

It would make sense.

Audrey Leach:

Which I think would also explain why they chose to characterize Chelsea the way they do, because they make her selectively dumb. Sometimes, she's really dumb and then other times she's acting like any other person her age, I don't know. The other thing is that they all look way older than they're supposed to be.

Hannah Leach:

I had that same thought. I was like, “They don't look like children at all.”

Audrey Leach:

Anneliese van der Pol has always looked 27.

Hannah Leach:

Agreed.

Audrey Leach:

From day one, 27.

Hannah Leach:

I also wonder if maybe the original idea was that Eddie and Raven would have a “will they, won't they” dynamic. And maybe they tried it, and it was just too weird.

Audrey Leach:

Well, you know what, watching the pilot, I was like, obviously, you miss what you know will be there later. But I was like I do miss Chelsea because even the relationship between Eddie and Chelsea can be entertaining.

The relationship between all of them together and individually can be entertaining. So, yeah, I don't know. I guess without Chelsea, they just would've been forced into a “will they, won't they” and maybe they didn't want that.

Hannah Leach:

Now, on to the next episode. Season one, episode 18, If I Only Had a Job, it aired on September 12th, 2003.

“Raven has a vision of her dad, Victor, getting fired by his new boss. So, she goes down to the restaurant to prevent the vision from coming true. (When is she going to learn that that's not how it works).

When that fails, she comes back disguised as a famous pop star and throws a loud tantrum in the restaurant complaining about the poor quality of the food since Victor left.”

Audrey Leach:

Why was this one that we watched though? I'm just curious.

Hannah Leach:

Because to me I always think about the musical number, which is:

“Since Victor left, the food's no good; since Victor left, the food's no good.”

And then there's a random gospel trio that just appears out of nowhere.

[Music Playing]

I also thought it was funny that they talked about the Wizard of Oz so much and didn't acknowledge the Wiz, which of course they wouldn't acknowledge the Wiz, but that was funny to me.

Oh, and then also, at the end where you kind of get one of the first glances into Raven's fashion design ability with Scarecrow from the hood, which made me laugh. And I also was like, “I can't believe they put that in there.”

And Chelsea's witch outfit, and then there's the studio audience that's like, “Ooh,” AKA not a real studio audience, but a sound effect of a studio audience.

Audrey Leach:

I appreciate that Eddie is in the drama club.

Hannah Leach:

Same.

Audrey Leach:

Shout out to Eddie for not being too manly to be in the drama club. And also, I love when Chelsea … when they're in their fake celebrity disguises, I love when Chelsea goes, “Do you carry a lunchbox?”

Chelsea:

“Do you carry a lunchbox?”

Hannah Leach:

I knew it was coming and I was like, “Oh God, here comes that one line.”

Audrey Leach:

It works for me, it just does.

Hannah Leach:

I'm glad it works for you. Here comes one of the deep ones. So, season 2, episode 8, That's So Not Raven, premiered on October 3rd, 2003.

“Raven enters a fashion contest and is told that she can't model her own designs because she doesn't have ‘the look.’ But of course, that doesn't stop her. Meanwhile, Cory and William tried to raise money for an expensive new video game.”

This is an episode that very much went down, and I think all of our collective histories, I have some interesting information just about the approach to size on That’s So Raven in general, but before we get to that, I feel like we should just talk about our impressions of the episode overall.

Audrey Leach:

I definitely remember it from childhood because sometimes on That's So Raven, they just talk about some real shit and it's jarring because you just watched five episodes of the dumbest thing you could possibly come up with, and then you get educated randomly, and it just feels good. It captivated me always.

Hannah Leach:

I believe that the name of the model was Emayshia. Be less subtle-

Audrey Leach:

It's really funny-

Hannah Leach:

Be less subtle.

Audrey Leach:

Kids won't know that.

Hannah Leach:

I know. That was really funny to me. I thought Raven's hair looked amazing in this episode.

Audrey Leach:

Me too.

Hannah Leach:

That was the first thing I wrote down.

Audrey Leach:

I wrote that down too.

Hannah Leach:

And then this is just a side note; why was loving shoes such a thing back then?

Audrey Leach:

I don't know, but I miss that, can we bring that back? Can we have that again? Like a love for shoes and just being out and proud about your love for shoes.

Hannah Leach:

Love is love, even when it's for shoes.

Audrey Leach:

Also, she had great shoes, she always had great shoes on. She always had flare jeans and pointy toe heels, and the best little jacket you've ever seen. So, I miss that.

Hannah Leach:

Very fitted. We're kind of supposed to think this, I don't know. I feel like back in the day, in my mind, I was like, “Oh, it looks better on Emayshia, but it looks good on Raven too.” But now when I look at it, I'm like, “It looks better on Raven.”

Audrey Leach:

Don't you think they would do that on purpose. I mean, it kind of needs to also look better.

Hannah Leach:

That's true. I was very, very, very surprised at how small she was. If that was supposed to be big at the time, like the photoshopped version of her body really isn't even that much smaller, that really puzzled me.

And it also reminded me just of the days where photo retouching was this big scandalous thing and now it's like, “You can do that on your phone.”

Audrey Leach:

Now, everybody just does it.

Hannah Leach:

Now, it's the most accessible thing in the world. And then at the same time when they kept being like, “You're supposed to be a size two” and then Chelsea gestures to the pole, like the light pole and is like, “That's a size two.”

And I'm like, “Anneliese van der Pol, what size are you?” I just found that to be strange too. Like you're never going to catch me talking about skinny shaming, but I just think it's really risky to ever be that specific.

Audrey Leach:

To illustrate it so clearly. I don't know, I could go either way on that because are you spoon-feeding it to the children who it had not occurred to yet? Yes, you are. And that can be very risky.

But for the kids who already were having those thoughts, I think it would be either just kind of no harm, like they didn't take it seriously anyway or helpful maybe.

But I don't know, I actually would love to just know the data on that with children. Because I know for myself, I did not give a thought to my body until way late, like very, very, very late. I did not think about my body period, in any way.

I thought about my freckles and stuff, maybe that. But not anything positive or negative, I was very blank.

Hannah Leach:

How was that possible?

Audrey Leach:

I don't know, but it was great. I literally don't know. I think because I was always a late bloomer anyway, so things just occurred to me later with body stuff. And I also just developed late — not to say developed, but everything was later.

And I was just so unconcerned with my body, but that also comes with the fact that I fit into a standard very easily. I was always super thin as a kid. And so, if I hadn't been that way, I'm sure it would've occurred to me sooner. Like I would've had thoughts sooner.

But I just truly on top of the fact that I was super thin, I just was like a floating entity. I just was fine. I had no thoughts.

Hannah Leach:

You had no vibes.

Audrey Leach:

I really didn't.

Hannah Leach:

I feel like it was probably … it had to have been third grade or something when I started to be aware of things, which is really depressing.

Audrey Leach:

Pretty early.

Hannah Leach:

I will say, as an aside, one thing that I've noticed about being in Chicago already is that there's a lot of extremely fierce fat people here.

Audrey Leach:

Okay.

Hannah Leach:

Like you don't really see that in New York, you don't really see it in Cleveland. I'll just say I went to a really crowded farmer's market and I just saw a lot of really cute fat people with really cute outfits on, and I was like, slay.

So, all that being said, I found this little interview with some blurbs that I thought were interesting. So, I know that I've seen things somewhere where Raven would talk about how they would try to dress her in a way that kind of hid her body or wasn't as loose as the stuff that other kids would get to wear on the channel.

But I found this interview with one of the costume designers named Nancy Butts Martin, and she said this, talking about the episode we're talking about right now:

“This episode alone held space and conversation about size diversity and how important it is to be able to exist at whatever size you are.”

Without knowing it, That's So Raven became a show rivaling fashion's consistent push that a size zero is the only body deserving of style. And while actors have often been instructed to fit a sample size, this designer strived to make sure that was never a discussion or topic on the That's So Raven set.”

It clearly was a discussion on the, That's So Raven set, so I don't get why they would say that. And then also Raven just said that people at Disney said she was too big to be doing an hour and a half long concert, which is insane. And also, that on the set of The Cosby Show, she was told not to eat food at age seven.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, I've heard that one.

Hannah Leach:

I think at the end though, it's a really joyful episode and the ending is really fun, and even Emayshia being like, “I don't even look like that,” about the photoshop.

Audrey Leach:

That's an important note. Also, she did look like that, you know what I mean? It's not like there was a huge disparity between what she actually looked like in the picture:

Voiceover:

“I don't pay you to think. This girl does not have the look.”

“The look … who says that's the only look. You make people feel bad if they don't look like that. No one looks like that.”

“I don't even look like that.”

“Because in case you haven't noticed, people come in all shapes and sizes and they're all beautiful.”

Tell it girl, speak the truth.

Put that in your magazine.

Audrey Leach:

Again, I don't know about their current day programming, but it seems that they will not touch anything of the sort today.

Hannah Leach:

But aren't there gay parents on Disney Channel now or something?

Audrey Leach:

There's been a few moments of gay identities on the Disney Channel, but it's so sanitized, which obviously that makes sense, but I think what is more impressive than portraying an identity that is controversial is like … how do I phrase it?

I kind of feel like being like, “This person's gay” on a kid's show has a lot less of an impact than this plot line that we're talking about. Because they're having to be really specific. It's not just “This person's gay” and then they have a bunch of plot lines that are irrelevant to that, this is very specific.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, it's about being discriminated against for being fat, which leads nicely into season 3, episode, 10, True Colors, February 4th, 2005, Black History Month when this episode came out. And this episode is blatantly about racism.

“Raven and Chelsea apply for jobs at the same store, but despite Raven's great skills and Chelsea's incompetence, Raven is rejected while Chelsea is accepted. And Raven has a vision that the store manager tells someone that she doesn't hire black people” as she says in the episode.

Female:

“The truth is I don't hire black people.”

Hannah Leach:

Oh, and then meanwhile Mr. And Mrs. Baxter are trying to impress on Cory how important it is that he learned black history and he has to write this paper for Black History Month. And it results in I think, the best dream sequence I've ever seen on a Disney Channel show. Maybe even on a kid's show in general.

I'm just wondering who wrote the joke: when Raven walks out the door, her family is like, “Black History Month, learn your black history.” And then she has to leave, and she opens the door and she's like, “I'm black and I'm history,” and then walks out the door. I'm like, “Who was sitting on that joke? I want to know.”

Audrey Leach:

They're pretty good.

Hannah Leach:

Oh, I also thought that when Raven has the vision about the racism and Eddie's like, “That's discrimination,” I thought that was really funny.

Audrey Leach:

That moment is very PSA.

Hannah Leach:

It's very PSA, but also, pretty needed. So, I’m glad that it’s there.

Audrey Leach:

Just say it plainly because kids need to know.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, they need it spelled out for them. I could not believe The Ghost of Frederick Douglass, that was so funny. I also really enjoyed that Scott Joplin was in there. Josh is like a rabid fan of Scott Joplin. So, we talk about him a lot.

Voiceover:

“What do you think about rag time Cory?”

“It's alright, but it's just not my kind of music.”

“Well, if it wasn't for this kind of music, you wouldn't have your kind of music.”

“What did you do with our CDs?”

“Just trying to show you what music would be like without Scott's contribution. His rag time music led to jazz, R&B, rock, hip hop — well, you get the idea.”

“Of course. I didn't get paid like the stars of today.”

“Let It go Scott.”

Audrey Leach:

They were able to make it funny, inclusive of everyone somehow, and educational all at the same time. It's very rare that you'll find a show that is able to do that so succinctly. I mean, it's like between the Cory storyline and the Raven storyline, they got the history part, and they got a real-life racism situation storyline.

Hannah Leach:

Also, we can't disregard the fact that for some reason, the disguise Raven picks is like a bald older man who she-

Audrey Leach:

So funny.

Hannah Leach:

Who she decides is going to be the manager of sassies, like the regional manager. And she's like, “You do hire people of color, don’t you?”

Raven:

“You do hire people of color, don't you?”

Hannah Leach:

It's just so weird and funny and that was really true to the spirit of the show that I think it detracts from anyone who would be like-

Audrey Leach:

This was a preachy-

Hannah Leach:

Preachy episode, yeah. It was genuinely really entertaining and funny.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, that dream sequence was beautiful.

Hannah Leach:

I wrote down not The Ghost of Frederick Douglass because I was so amused.

Audrey Leach:

I hope they still show that to this day on Disney Channel for Black History Month, it definitely is the best example. They don't have a better Black History Month episode than that in their arsenal, there's just no way.

Hannah Leach:

No, it's not possible. So, shout out to that one.

Season three, episode 14, “Boys in Commotion” came out on March 11th, 2005. I could not find a reasonable synopsis for this episode, so-

Audrey Leach:

It’s Boyz ‘N Motion, isn't it?

Hannah Leach:

No, the name of the episode is called Boys in Commotion.

Audrey Leach:

“Boys, we have the boys in motion. We gave you odd emotion. Boys …”

Sorry, I had to, okay go.

Hannah Leach:

This is what I wrote as the synopsis:

“Raven is starstruck, went through a fortuitous turn of events. Her favorite boy band (Boyz ‘N Motion) takes up residence at the Baxter household. While getting swept up in her own excitement, Raven promises her classmates that she'll get the boys to come perform at her school, but will she pull it off?”

Audrey Leach:

I mean, there's not like a whole, whole lot to say about this episode, but it is very memorable to me. And there's two other episodes also that we did not cover in this that are super memorable to me.

One being the one where they find an excuse for Anneliese van der Pol to sing, and it's like another dream sequence situation. I'm going to insert a little bit of that probably here because it's ingrained into my brain:

Anneliese van der Pol (Singing):

“Won't be alone on my own in the hallways, no more.”

And the other one is, and I have no idea where it is in the show, but the bedroom makeover.

Hannah Leach:

Yes, yes, yes.

Audrey Leach:

She had a floating bed on, like it was a swinging bed, and that has changed my dreams forever. Like if I could have any room, I would have a bed that floats and I would have, you know — like there was a floating chair in Cheetah Girls 2. Do you remember that at the beginning?

Hannah Leach:

Oh, yes, yes.

Audery Leach:

One of them is sleeping in a chair that's hanging up from the ceiling. And I was like, this is just the pinnacle interior design you know.

Hannah Leach:

You're like, pottery barn teen found dead. Like where's-

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. Like I'm interior decorating now and I'm like when am I going to have the funds to hire someone to put some kind of insane-like metal in the ceiling? So, that you could do that because you would need to reinforce it with steel to be able to do that.

Hannah Leach:

Yes, 100%. I'm also in the home decor phase right now (well, kind of). Our shit is still all over the place, but I'm trying to make it work.

Audrey Leach:

This was a little bit … don't you feel this aired a little bit after the prime of boy bands? Just slightly.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

It's like a send up on Backstreet Boys or any pop in sync or whatever. It was pretty dumb to have them actually stay in their house.

Hannah Leach:

No, nothing made sense about that situation, but they pulled it off, I guess.

Audrey Leach:

The funniest thing too, I don't know if you noticed this at the very end when Raven, Eddie and Chelsea joined them on stage — Chelsea's doing this crazy trick with one of the Boys ‘N Motion, like this lift thing. And I like died when I saw that because you just know that Anneliese van der Pol was like, “Oh, we can do something fun here.”

Hannah Leach:

Yep, I thought the exact same thing. I was like, she definitely was like, “I did this in a workshop production a few years back.”

Audrey Leach:

Like students-

Hannah Leach:

And I was probably … yeah, right. Exactly, I had the exact same thought.

Audrey Leach:

It was so funny.

Hannah Leach:

Oh, I also felt like the little mean girl clique reminded me a lot of Bring It On.

Audrey Leach:

This is such a niche reference, so the tallest girl, I am pretty sure that she's the one who can't walk in heels in the Bratz movie, in that montage.

Hannah Leach:

Whoa.

Audrey Leach:

It’s so minor information.

Hannah Leach:

That fries my brain slightly. I would have to check.

Audrey Leach:

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Hannah Leach:

Yes, it's like the soccer player?

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

I'm pretty sure that's the same person.

Hannah Leach:

Oh my God, how many times have I seen that movie? It can't be more than like five.

Audrey Leach:

The Bratz movie?

Hannah Leach:

Did we own it?

Audrey Leach:

It was a van movie.

Hannah Leach:

Okay, that's what I thought.

Audrey Leach:

What are you talking about?

Hannah Leach:

So, how many times do you think I've seen it?

Audrey Leach:

I think we've seen it like 15 or more.

Hannah Leach:

Alright. Well-

Audrey Leach:

But I do remember that I wanted to watch it more than you for sure.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, I'm not surprised by that. So, really all there is to say about Boys in Commotion is what we said. And, “Boys, we are the boys in motion,” that's it.

Audrey Leach:

Yep.

[Music Playing]

Hannah Leach:

The series finale inexplicably, it came out on November 10th, 2007, and it's called Where There's Smoke: “Raven thinks that Cory is smoking, and her parents are MIA, I wrote that.”

Audrey Leach:

This is clearly a situation of we did not know this was the end of the show because I think they would've done their due diligence to write a real ending.

I was trying to look into it and it seems that it might have been a situation where they finished the season, and they were regrouping. Raven was probably trying to figure out her next move. There were talks about a spinoff which is ultimately what happened with Cory in the House because Orlando and Elise and Raven were all looking way too old.

They all had grown out of the roles and so it was time, but I just wish they would've given them a special or even a DCOM. Because that is something that they do. So, I do kind of mourn that.

Hannah Leach:

It’s kind of nuts that they did that to their biggest franchise honestly.

Audrey Leach:

But they probably were just like, “We got to head right into this next show, we don't have time to waste.”

Hannah Leach:

Also, Hannah Montana dropped around that time, and I think that their-

Audrey Leach:

The focus was changing.

Hannah Leach:

Their focus shifted. And it's so funny to end on a PSA episode.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, why would you end — like the fact that their magnum opus was about anti-smoking-

Hannah Leach:

Smoking cigarettes.

Audrey Leach:

And it is strange, I was kind of jarred by the lack of parents. We know that the mother character is not on the season the entire season. But the father also is not in this last episode and Raven is acting as though she is Cory's parent.

Hannah Leach:

I know.

Audrey Leach:

She's like, “You got to do the laundry, you got to do this, you got to do this.” And it's like, we're super out of nowhere compared to what we had watched before, which was the Boys in Motion episode, like it was a completely huge change in dynamic, and it's like Raven is 25 and Cory is 18.

Hannah Leach:

If we want to just slide right on into, if we think the show made an impact on the genre.

Audrey Leach:

Kind of created the genre in a modern sense.

Hannah Leach:

It's definitely worth revisiting. I really enjoyed it. It's also one of those shows that you can walk around and do things while you're listening to it, even though obviously, the visual gags are really good too and you are missing out on some stuff if you do it that way.

I think in terms of Disney Channel shows, do you think it's the most impactful or influential? I guess probably, I don't know.

Audrey Leach:

I want to say yeah, but she seems really happy now. So, that is what matters. And she seems to be in a healthy relationship, and she seems to have stability and that is truly the most important thing.

Hannah Leach:

And I think the show was just really positive and very no mean humor. Like a positive loving family, a positive loving black family on the Disney Channel when we were kids. Just There's no Els, it was all good.

Audrey Leach:

No, it's all good. And I will continue my rewatch, I'm not done yet.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, it keeps going.

Audrey Leach:

Normally, I just want to stop rewatching or stop whatever it is that we just rewatched. I'm like, “Okay, I'm good on that for many years or forever,” but this one, I will watch. The theme song is the best to me, best theme song on Disney ever. It has to be.

Hannah Leach:

Also, the transitional music is really, really good too.

Audrey Leach:

“Ding, ding …” that's my impression.

Hannah Leach:

That was a really good impression.

[Music Playing]

The vocal percussion really took it there. I do also want to say just as a footnote, I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I think tied for first for me, I really like the Hannah Montana theme song.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, no, it is really good. It's really good.

Hannah Leach:

It's really singable.

Audrey Leach:

They had the vision: “Mix it all together.”

Hannah Leach:

Shit now I'm like, all right, we got to do a Hannah Montana episode.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, we probably should.

Hannah Leach:

That'll be interesting. So, that being said …

Audrey Leach:

As always, you can find more from us at evergreenpodcasts.com/sleepover-cinema and keep up with our latest creative projects at toopinkproductions.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and YouTube at Sleepover Cinema. And post a full video version of each episode on YouTube every Thursday.

You can follow me, Audrey @Audrey Anna Leach on everything.

[Music Playing]

Hannah Leach:

And you can follow me, Hannah at Hannah Rae Leach on everything. Please join our discourse server if you haven't done so yet. The link is in the episode description and on evergreenpodcasts.com.

Audrey Leach:

You can check out our merch at toopinkproductions.com/shop. We have T-shirts, sweatshirts, stickers, and more.

Hannah Leach:

And if you love the show, if you were a That’s So Raven girl, if you felt represented by Chelsea, share the episode with a friend and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

Audrey Leach:

The representation for the dumb white girls.

Hannah Leach:

Exactly.

Audrey Leach:

I've been a Chelsea. I have, I won’t lie.

Hannah Leach:

We've all been a Chelsea at some point.

Audrey Leach:

We’ve all been a Chelsea.

Sleepover Cinema is a production of Evergreen Podcasts, produced, edited, and engineered by us, Hannah and Audrey Leach. Sleepover Cinema’s mixed by Sean Rule-Hoffman with theme music by Josh Perelman-Hall. Executive producer is Michael DeAloia.

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