Jaime King Part II: Her Transition From Supermodel to Television and Film Star

Joe Katz:
Jaime, thank you so much for coming back and talking.

Jaime King:
Thanks for having me.

Joe Katz:
Yes. It's so fun to have you on. I mean, I could talk to you so long about all your modeling stuff. It's amazing, everything you went through.

Jaime King:
Thank you.

Joe Katz:
I mean, we could probably even go for another hour.

Jaime King:
There's so much more we could be talking about, I'm sure.

Joe Katz:
Oh my god, yeah.

Jaime King:
Between the both of us, it's a never-ending, beautiful book.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. A book is definitely, I could see in your future, for sure. I could see a really interesting book. But I wanted to talk to you about all of your acting, because we talked about the modeling, and I wanted everybody to hear about everything that you're doing because you've really grown. I mean, you've got a hit show now on Netflix, which is awesome, Black Summer.

Jaime King:
Yes, I'm so thankful.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. I mean, that's incredible. That's incredible. I want to give people just a little idea, and I want to learn too, because I know about some of it, but I remember when you got started, wasn't your first film, was it Pearl Harbor or no?

Jaime King:
My first film was called Happy Campers, and it was written and directed by Daniel Waters. Daniel wrote one of my favorite films called Heathers, and he had seen a picture of me when I was a model and wrote a character inspired by a photograph that he saw. So Denise Denovi and Mike DeLuca, two brilliant, brilliant producers reached out. I flew out to Los Angeles, and I audition about six times, got the part. It was myself, Peter Stormare, Justin Long, an extraordinary cast. We shot it in North Carolina. I remember when they called action, I froze. I looked at Jeff, and I was like, "What do I do?" He was like, "Now you act." You know what I mean? It was like, "Oh, okay." Then my second film was Blow, with Johnny Depp and Penelope Cruz.

Joe Katz:
Oh wow.

Jaime King:
Then I did Pearl Harbor. Then after that, I did slackers with Jason Schwartzman and Jason Segel. I mean, so many, again, amazing actors. I look back on it, and it's just, wow.

Joe Katz:
Wow. So when you decided you're going to get into acting, what did that look like? Did you start going to an acting school or classes or coaches? How did that happen?

Jaime King:
Well, to me, I think the biggest education that I got, to even become an actor, was through watching so many films and listening

Jaime King:
...so much music and reading so much, so that was really a foundation. And my friends that I met when I was still in the fashion industry, Joaquin Phoenix and Leonardo DiCaprio, Tobey Maguire, Stephen Dorff, there were a group of these extraordinary actors that I met, and I would watch them and the way that they would work, and they taught me so, so much about this industry that we're doing and the dedication and the work and the training and putting me with the right teachers and coaches. And they were still doing scene studies even though they had huge movies out, and really taught me the importance of that the craft comes first, and taught me about what it means to do press and how you should do it. And they always said, "You don't do anything unless you know that a movie's coming out. You keep your private life private." And this was at a time way before social media. You work. You do body movement training. You do vocal training. It's like that you never stop, that there's always... It's a limitless craft. They set a bar for me that I'm so thankful for, because I looked at them, again, when they had huge careers and hit movies, and they were still treating every single project, every single day, as another opportunity to just keep digging deeper.

Joe Katz:
Wow. So you had all different kinds of coaches. Did you do Meisner or Stanislavski or all of those?

Jaime King:
Yes. I mean all of it. Very much rooted in the Actors Studio.

Joe Katz:
Oh, the Actors Studio.

Jaime King:
Very much rooted in the Actors Studio. But I've been trained in all of them and still train in all of them. My teacher now is a woman named Nancy Banks, and she's phenomenal. My previous teacher and best friend passed away two years ago, and... I was there, and she had cancer, and she was really a deep love of my life. But she brought me to the depth of who I am and understanding how to merge who I am with the character and bring that to life. And she was one of the most extraordinary teachers on the planet. And when I started working with Nancy... Nancy was trained at Larry Moss. She's amazing. Look at her work with Jen Aniston or Margot Robbie or all these amazing people. And then I worked with a man named [Jean Louis 00:00:53:21] for movement.

Jaime King:
And there's teachers that come into your life and make a profound impact on the way that you approach any project, and I really feel like these teachers need to be celebrated, because as actors they're like our anchor, our root to connecting to the material. And they give you permission to connect to it in a different way than you saw it before. And that's what's so exciting about filmmaking in general, is there's always a different approach. There's always a different way in, and there's always a different way and a more articulate, multifaceted way to connect to and to share the truth. When I walk onto a set or approach a character, I may think I'm coming about it one way. It ends up being completely different. And that's the exciting part of it.

Jaime King:
With Black Summer, that's been... It is truly one of the most extraordinary, transcendental experiences I've had as an artist and as a producer. We first started filming season two in February, and then COVID hit, and then we were the first production to go back up for Netflix. And pre-COVID, I remember this moment of being on set where I was like, "Okay, let me just connect," and I was like... We say this a lot with acting. It's just, you just do what you were given and use everything. When we say use everything, it's like, use whatever what's happening, that's going on in that moment in your life personally, and just give it over. You're giving it over. This kind of alchemy takes place where it's not reliant on sense memory or... It's not reliant on just your imagination or, "A flower smells like this, so I'm relating to my personal..." You have all of these different ways that you're trained, and then there was this moment where it was like all of those years just had this beautiful communion. And inside of me, I was like, "Oh, wow. I can just be right now. I can just be. I don't have to act. I don't have to be myself. I don't have to be Rose. I can just be."

Jaime King:
And it's hard to put words on it, but it's a combination of working with one of the greatest filmmakers I've ever worked with, John Hyams, who makes every actor and person feels so safe. It is a combination of Netflix and the studio and their belief in me, and putting me in a position of power to produce and star as a woman, which is so rare, and to tell stories and cast actors that are unknown. It's like the whole process of it. And our crew that has like a kind of connection that's like... It's magical. And when you have all of that around you as the actor, it creates that space. And if then I'm creating this space, then this thing happens that's indescribable. And it's just been amazing.

Jaime King:
And then coming back into the production after COVID, when you have so many rules, you're quarantined, you're in a bubble, as the producer it was challenging, because I'm the star as well, so then I couldn't physically be on set if I wasn't on camera. Then even on set, I'm isolated from the other actors. So it's taking a very intimate, creative experience, and then it becomes very sterile and medical. And yet somehow this group, our crew, our cast, us together, got through it with joy and with humor. And again, we use it all. And so it's so important right now to be able to have a place to put all these big feelings that we have, all of us, and to...

Jaime King:
I've always wanted to do what I do, because when I was little and I would watch films and I would watch shows, I felt like it would be that one thing that was [inaudible 00:58:25] for me to say, "Oh, I'm not alone in the world," because I could see through characters and through the stories myself or my story being told in some way, shape, or form. And so it's an act of service, and it's... Art is powerfully healing, and so it's a real gift to do it and to be a part of it and to share it, because it's always about the sharing of it.

Joe Katz:
I'm just curious. When you said you used to watch when you were a little kid, who inspired you as an actor or actress? Like when you would watch, and they'd talk to you through... Like, I remember growing up and seeing like the Brady Bunch. And I remember a Hart to Hart. Stefanie Powers [inaudible 00:00:59:06]. And it was always funny shows that I was like... I just was curious who you looked at and thought, "Oh, they kind of speak through to me a little bit.

Jaime King:
Michelle Pfeiffer.

Joe Katz:
Oh, Michelle Pfeiffer?

Jaime King:
Michelle Pfeiffer. Like anything Michelle Pfeiffer did, I was obsessed with. And Olivia Newton John, because I love musicals. Grease was a big film for me. Honestly I think it's because Olivia did the first Grease, then Michelle did the second one, and it really was a story about like an outcast that didn't fit in it and then had to... Like that whole thing. But it combined everything that I love, which was acting, singing, dancing, costumes, like. When you look, it actually is a pretty brilliant film, because it's exploring social dynamics and groups of people and who fits where and who doesn't and all of that.

Jaime King:
And Anjelica Huston I loved, and Pachino, and Nicholson. I mean, there are so many different... Uma Thurman, Poitier, so many different actors that had just a huge mark that I remember when I was really little. Betty Davis. There was something about Betty Davis that was just like, you knew she was just a different person. Or Katharine Hepburn. It was like they were feminine and masculine. They were everything in between. They owned who they were individually and as the character, even though I didn't know anything about them at that time, but you could feel it through their performances. It's funny how people make a mark on you when you're really little.

Joe Katz:
Oh yeah, yeah. Huge impression. Yeah. And I remember you telling me about when you were doing Black Summer with the whole COVID thing and how you had to be... Basically you were by yourself. You couldn't be with other people. And there were like... What is it? Green, yellow, and red zones, right?

Jaime King:
Oh yeah, yeah. So you had like red zone, yellow zone, a green zone, and purple. And so purple are the actors, so a purple zone it means... Essentially we would say, "Oh, walk in purple." Purple means you have no PPE on and no one can come near you. Because when we take our PPE off, because cameras are going to roll, the only people that are even allowed in that zone or near that zone have to be fully in PPE, and the only people that are allowed to are the director, the cinematographer, your camera operator, your AD department. It's very, very strict.

Jaime King:
And we have what we call the COVID police, which is HSS department, a new department, and thank God for them, that really makes sure that no one is near. Like, for instance, if someone were to come on, if wardrobe needed to touch something on me, they would have to be in a full gown, mask, goggles, face shield, and gloves. And so if they were to come in to adjust this, they'd have to have all that on. But if they stepped away, if they moved their hands once and stepped away, even just like this, they'd have to disrobe, take all of the PPE off, recycle that, put all new back on. So it's...

Jaime King:
Thank God, again, our set has so much fun and we could... It's humor. So we would figure out a way to make it fun and joke around about it, but knowing that it was really serious and really, really strict. And we had the dedication, the ethic, because we love this show so much and love what we do so much and how necessary it is right now for us to be... Even the opportunity in the first place to get anything made in Hollywood is seemingly impossible. When that's like the love of your life, is to create films and television, to do that, it's... And the responsibility of when you have that opportunity, and with COVID, to be the first production backup was like, "Whatever we do here is vital. It's vital, because if we can get through this, then we can share that with other productions, so other productions go back up." So the whole industry is relying on each other right now to get it back up.

Jaime King:
And most importantly, we need stories to get out to audiences, because they need it. Art heals. And so when we went up there, we were on essential workers visas, and there were seven given from the prime minister. And I was talking to my makeup artist, Ashley Levy, and she was like, "When I got that visa, it was like the first time that I felt really seen and heard for what it is that I do." And it really struck me, and I understand, because the making people think that filmmaking or acting or being on a production is some glamorous thing. We're shooting 15, 16 hours a day. We are required to be away for months at a time traveling or living in a... And if people don't love that art form or love doing this thing, then people on the outside are like, "Wait, why would you choose to do something like that?" Because it requires so much time and so much dedication and the blood and the sweat and the tears. So I really understood what she meant when she said that. People think it's like you go and you play dress up, and it's just so... It's so much-

Joe Katz:
So much deeper, yeah. So much deeper than that.

Jaime King:
Deeper.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to see what you did on the show. I was watching, and it was so intense. There's so much intensity of it. Before we had chatted about how it really has a social meaning, that-

Jaime King:
Very much so. Yes. So the show-

Joe Katz:
Yeah. In what way?

Jaime King:
In a way that... When Trump was elected, and kids were getting ripped away and separated from their families at the border, and a culmination of so much injustice and so much inherent racism, xenophobia homophobia, all of these... There's such a division in the country, and it was really like a tipping point. And how do we talk about this? What does that look like? And in the show, people think it's just about like zombies or something like that, but interestingly enough, there wasn't even the word zombie in the first script that I read. People were getting sick, and the sickness is representative of the division and the hatred, and that no one is immune to it, that we have to come together as a collective to... What would that look like, if there was a pandemic? And then boom, the pandemic. It was like, "Oh my God." When you watch the first episode, the government doesn't know what's happening. We don't know what's happening. No one knows what's happening.

Jaime King:
It was crazy, because like the before everyone was shut down because of COVID, a brilliant young actress who plays my daughter, Zoe, and I were in the middle of a scene, and we're like, "Oh my God, we're making a movie, but living in a movie about the movie." It was just super surreal. It was like, "How is this happening?" And then we started talking about this and making this thing. And then all of a sudden people were getting stuck, and no one knew what this thing was, and what did that look like? And people were racing to buy toilet paper and commodities and supplies. And those were the stories we're telling, where it's like money... In a way, it wasn't about money. It was about, do you have enough food? Do you have water? How can you safely get from one thing, one place... A very heightened but very real kind of... It's crazy how that works.

Joe Katz:
Because it was like nothing we've ever experienced.

Jaime King:
Nothing.

Joe Katz:
It's really nothing that I've ever experienced in all my gajillions of years being here. But it's weird. Yeah, it was so weird. I always think-

Jaime King:
There's no words.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, there really isn't. And it's amazing. And you got through it. How many months did you shoot for the [crosstalk 01:08:23]

Jaime King:
Almost three. Yeah. August, September, October. I wrapped on the 21st, came back to Los Angeles for a few days, and flew down with my children to Puerto Rico to do my film with Bruce Willis. And then, again, getting productions up and running is so challenging, and there are all these contingencies. So for instance, when we got there, some tests were positive or inconclusive, so then obviously you're already quarantined, but they were false positives and things like that, so then you have to get everyone... Like hundreds of people are retested, then you're waiting for the test, and the labs don't turn around the test, depending on the spikes of the city or the place at that time. And Puerto Rico was on a curfew and a lock... You just have to be super malleable and flexible and dedicated, because no one knows what's going on right now in the world, period.

Joe Katz:
No, we're all learning. Yeah, we're all learning.

Jaime King:
We're all just like, "Okay." [crosstalk 01:09:32] like, "How are you?" It's like, "How are you?" [crosstalk 01:09:36] "I don't know." How do we identify what we're feeling in each moment?

Joe Katz:
"I don't know. That's a good question."

Jaime King:
Because it's like everything that we know as routine or a structure or a reference point has essentially been eradicated, and so it's just very... It's interesting.

Joe Katz:
What is the film with Bruce Willis about? Can you tell a little bit about that?

Jaime King:
Yes. It's called Out of Death, and it's essentially about a woman who is grieving the loss of her father and really the lack of relationship that she had with him. She starts to go on this hike, this journey to spread his ashes, and she witnesses a corrupt cop murder. So it's really about the abuse of power.

Joe Katz:
And who does Bruce Willis play?

Jaime King:
He plays a cop as well.

Joe Katz:
Oh, a cop.

Jaime King:
And I'm not a cop, but it's about cops that are good, cops that are corrupt, and a person that is like, "I don't trust any of you. Who do I believe?" that has to fight against it all and then learn how to trust again, and whilst going through this journey of grieving. And Bruce was brilliant as... I mean, he's the best. And it was very timely, because I feel very strongly about these issues.

Joe Katz:
So did that script just happen to come through? Or was that something you were working on, that script?

Jaime King:
It's interesting. It came through. It's funny how that works sometimes. I literally just got a call, and I was at... I was quarantining with one of my best friends here and during the protest and all of this stuff, and boom, it was just like, "You got this film offer, and it's with Bruce, and this is what it's about.| And I was like, "It's perfect. It's perfect."

Joe Katz:
That's interesting. Yeah. It's so interesting, because I look at your career, and I look at like... I think of like Hart of Dixie, where you played this-

Jaime King:
I loved that, yeah.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. Hart of Dixie was just like-

Jaime King:
Those are my favorites.

Joe Katz:
It was lighter, but it was just, you played this aristocratic girl and... But it's so interesting to see that compared to like when I looked at Black Summer. It's like, "Whoa, those are two different things." This is very lighter, fun, and then this is dark, and it sounds like the Bruce Willis thing is even also... What do you prefer? It seems like you're really... When I watched that opening scene of you in Black Summer, so intense, of you climbing up on that chain-

Jaime King:
Oh my god. Yes. And we shoot [inaudible 00:22:25], so it's like a play on film. We shoot for up to 15 minutes without cutting, so it's very immersive. And really rare that you're ever given an opportunity to do something like that, but we're so lucky to be able to do that. Honestly, I don't have a pref... I love it all. And I'm looking for always what it is that's going... Not only challenge me, but how can I explore humanity and reflect humanity back to humanity in the most powerful way?

Jaime King:
And doing a Hart of Dixie and coming as a film actor to television and approaching it like I would film and creating a very nuanced, layered character when the material is light was a really fun thing to do, because you could look at Lemon Breeland on a page... And they were having a really hard time casting it, and they had offered it to me multiple times, and I said no, because I didn't have interest at that time in doing television. And I didn't know I would be allowed to approach Lemon the way that I would doing films, because at that time it was different kinds of acting. But I sat down with the show runner and the creator, and she was like, "You're the one. You're the one. I know that you're the one. Please."

Jaime King:
And when she explained it and that I could root it in something that mattered to me, which was taking this idea of a woman from the South who was raised with certain traditions and put up on a pedestal, who felt very strongly about things, but when you really look at it, it was like she was raised without a mother, she had to raised herself and her little sister, and taught that if you break any of these traditions in a way... Really it's that you have to be married, and it has to look like this, and if not, then somehow you're failure.

Joe Katz:
Or you don't fit in, or... Yeah, yeah.

Jaime King:
Yeah. It's like, "Here are the rules, and you must adhere by them." And it really becomes an exploration of a woman that feels strongly about where she comes from, and at the same time really becomes like a feminist, is making hard, challenging decisions to...

Jaime King:
She's a white woman that's in love with a black man and engaged to a white man. It's light, but when you look at it, we were really talking about other things, there. With Black Summer, it's the same thing. I'm always looking for things where I can turn it on its head.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Jaime King:
Yeah, that's the fun thing about this work, is that you can do it at all. I do believe that when someone is cast in something or when you're writing something or directing something, producing, so many things have to align, and I'm putting it mildly, as you know, for it to happen. I do believe that it's like, if you're meant to do that thing, you're going to do it.

Jaime King:
I always think about fingerprints, right? I know if I read a script or if I'm writing something, what is for me versus what is for another actor, or another filmmaker, or another writer, when is it time to say, "Oh, that's not mine. That's for them." For me, what I love the most is to be in a position where I can create things for other people, where they can tell their stories, other actors, other directors, other filmmakers. That's why I love producing so much, and why I love directing or writing, is when you see things in other people, and you're like, "Oh, I want to see that. How does that happen?"

Joe Katz:
It's interesting, though, because in Hollywood, I feel like living here in LA, everybody is about me. "Oh my God, I got this, I got this. This is a part from me." You would think you'd want to, "Give me that part. I'll take that part, and I'll do this."

Jaime King:
I feel the opposite, yeah. I love actors. I love the grip department. I love electrics. I love set dec. I love all of these artists, you know what I mean? So when you have the experience of seeing people do what they do brilliantly, and you're lucky enough to be a part of what that feels like, I'm just like, "Okay, what does it look like for me to be able to create more of that?" That's, again, why just acting is way too limiting for me, way too limiting in terms of what it is that I love to do. Because I love to be a part of all of it. You know?

Joe Katz:
And produce and everything.

Jaime King:
Exactly.

Joe Katz:
I was just thinking about this as you were talking, because I'm looking at you, going, "Oh, there's that girl from Nebraska. There's that little girl from Nebraska, and I'm a little boy from Iowa, but we've all grown up." What would you tell a little girl watching you from Nebraska, that's 13, that's like, "God, I would do anything to be Jaime King, if I could do that." How could she do it? What if she can't model? What if she just wants to come to Hollywood, and she wants to do it? What would you say? What would be your advice?

Jaime King:
I believe that people can do anything. I really do. I'm not trying to sound lofty. I know it because that's my experience of a kid that came from nothing, from the middle of nowhere.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Jaime King:
Really through a lot of hard work, and a lot of study, and a lot of grace, and there's miracles along the way. To a kid in Nebraska, it's like now it's such a different time. You have social media, you have different ways of receiving information. Study films, study the artists that you love, learn about that. There's endless ways to learn about it. There's endless ways to create things now, even if you're in Omaha, Nebraska, or wherever you are. You can grab your iPhone and make a movie. Do it.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Jaime King:
You can do it, you know? Just do it.

Joe Katz:
Right. It's so different than when we-

Jaime King:
And as we start creating ... Go ahead.

Joe Katz:
Oh no, go ahead. Go ahead. As you start creating, what?

Jaime King:
What were you going to say?

Joe Katz:
No, I was just thinking that you can. I mean, people create their own thing, and they become viral. Or maybe they don't become viral. Maybe they just make what they love.

Jaime King:
Exactly.

Joe Katz:
We couldn't do that.

Jaime King:
That's a big part of it.

Joe Katz:
Yeah.

Jaime King:
No, it was so different then. It's just so different. When you said it could go viral, or even if it doesn't go viral, you can make what you love. That really hit my heart in such a beautiful way, because it's true. I just want to do what I love, and I know that you want to do what you love. Human beings want to do what they love. They've either been taught that they can't ... I think there's a strange thing about work, that you can't actually have fun doing your work, and do what you love. There's a lot of, I think, messaging around if you love something, it doesn't mean that that can be your career.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, it's a hobby.

Jaime King:
Those are hobbies.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. It's your hobby. It's a fun hobby, and you should keep that full-time job with benefits.

Jaime King:
Precisely, precisely. I think we're all kind of learning, and I think especially through a pandemic, it's like, "My god, do what you love, and do it for you." Because I think that the more that we start to do what we love, the more that we start to attract a world and an experience that is beyond what we could ever possibly imagine, truly.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. I think a lot of times, and I've known this even for myself sometimes, and I know with even other friends, we go, "Well, I don't know if I can really support myself doing that. Wouldn't I love to? Of course I'd love to. I'd love to have Jaime's career because she's producing, she's on Netflix. She's gets all that. This is amazing." But you had to take risks, too. I mean, a lot of people-

Jaime King:
Everything is a risk.

Joe Katz:
Yeah.

Jaime King:
Everything is a risk. It's all the risk-taking, that is why I'm here now. There's still always risk. There are a huge things I've done, that I did for nothing, not knowing whether it was going to be huge or not. I think people have a misconception about Hollywood and doing something, and everyone's millionaires, you get millions of dollars. That's really not the case. It's really not. You know. It's like you're hustling. You're rejected thousands of times before you're said yes to you. Even when you get a yes, it doesn't mean that the next one is going to be a yes. It's a consistent thing. It's hard to describe. You know what I'm saying? It's like you have to love it so much that there's nothing else you can do, in a strange way. There's no quitting on yourself because it's bigger. Does that make sense?

Joe Katz:
One thing I'm thinking, if people look at you and they go, "Well, Jaime King, she wasn't rejected." Was she?

Jaime King:
Oh my god.

Joe Katz:
Really?

Jaime King:
All the time, yeah.

Joe Katz:
All the time?

Jaime King:
Yeah, all the time.

Joe Katz:
Do you mean in acting roles and stuff like that?

Jaime King:
Yeah, all actors are.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, I know. I know.

Jaime King:
That's the process. You go into a room, and if you're auditioning for something, you're presenting the way that you see that character. Again, it becomes more and more nuanced and layered, and it's a lot of work. It's a lot of being willing to literally unzip your soul, what I call our human suit, step into something and say, "Okay, I'm just going to give it all right now. I don't know what's going to happen, but this is what I'm going to do."

Joe Katz:
Like standing naked in front of somebody, right?

Jaime King:
Exactly. Well, that's what it is. That's what it means to really be an actor. Well, I wouldn't say then. I know that now, I finally feel like I'm in the position where I'm in a place where there's grace, in terms of, "Oh, wow. I really earned where I am right now. I've earned my position as a producer. I've earned everything that I've done." Now I get to, again, create the space for other people to have those opportunities.

Joe Katz:
What would you say to somebody that says, "You know what? I have a full-time job. I have benefits. It's super secure. I feel safe, but it's not something I really like. I'd love to be an actress. I'd love to be a singer. I want to do that, but I'm too scared because it's like, I'm going to lose my money, I'm going to lose my benefits. I could go homeless. I could be all of that." Is it worth it to just say, "I'll take it as a hobby?" Or should I jump in? What would your advice be?

Jaime King:
I'm the kind of person that would say just jump in. Really, because what I do is essentially freelance. There's no guarantees that I'm going to have a next job, or a next job, just like you. It really is like, "Oh, I have this right now." Then it's the next, and then I have to find the next. There's no security in what it is. The only security that I know that I have is that I do what I love, and I do it very well, and I get to share that with people.

Jaime King:
Also there is a practicality thing, right? So if it's something that you love that you want to do, it's not like, okay, just burn everything to the ground. Is there a way that you can go from full-time to part-time? Every individual is different. I would never advise people to just quit everything and do what they love, if they don't have the capacity to handle that thing.

Jaime King:
I remember I was asked to do a talk about emotional authenticity in social media. I remember when I was up there, it struck me, I was like, "I never went about social media to be emotionally authentic. I just speak from a place of truth. It was never like a strategy. It's just who I am." Someone's like, "Well, how would you advise someone to be emotionally authentic through social media?" I was like, "Basically, if you're about to post something that scares you, then you're probably being pretty authentic, but that doesn't mean that that's the right thing." When I say scares, it's like, anytime that we're revealing ourselves, it feels scary.

Joe Katz:
Sure.

Jaime King:
But the more that we reveal who we are and what we love, and do what we love, and being vulnerable, that is our greatest strength. I believe that vulnerability is our greatest strength. Then other people see that, and they're like, "Oh, you said that thing, or I saw that thing, and that really resonated with me. That really helped me." It's like this extraordinary effect that we have on each other. So I feel like the more that we can find out ways to dip our toes into doing what we love ... Is there a local theater? Is there a role that you could audition for, and if you went to part-time, that you could do that? Then see what that feels like, in your body, in your heart, in your mind, in your life. What does that feel like? Then it's, "Oh, okay." The more we start to do what we love and experience the fullness of what that gives us, the more confidence we have to move into that.

Joe Katz:
Right, that makes sense.

Jaime King:
I think there's always different ways to-

Joe Katz:
Oh yeah.

Jaime King:
Yeah.

Joe Katz:
When you talk about confidence, and because this whole podcast, too, is about fashion and style, it makes me think about confidence. People look at you, too, and they go, "Jaime is so cool. She can rock a sweatshirt with a cool, chunky necklace." If you can't see this, you've you got to log on to YouTube and watch the video, and you can see what Jaime's wearing. But she's just rocking this, and your sweatshirt and your sweat pants. You've got this cool style. What would you say to somebody that just says, "God, how do I kind of put stuff together? How would I rock a style? How would I get a cool vibe like Jaime?" Do you have any advice?

Jaime King:
How do I explain it? It's a feeling.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Jaime King:
It's like a feeling. My friend and collaborator, Kris, and this is her new line. I love the color of this sweatshirt. I love this sweatshirt. I was like, "Oh, that's fun. That reminds me of Joe. Oh, that makes me happy today." Then I saw this necklace, just sitting on my dresser, and I was like, "Oh, well, why not? Let's just see how that looks." I was like, "Do I wear jeans?" I was like, "Oh, let's just go with sweat pants because that's what feels comfortable." And I'm like, "Oh, I like that color."

Jaime King:
It's being willing to put things together that I guess people wouldn't normally think of, but I'm not thinking of it like that. Like Marie Kondo, when she says does that bring you joy, or something like that. The idea that, does it spark joy? Go for the things that spark joy, and be willing to break rules, I guess.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, yeah. If you haven't tried trends, maybe try them in a small way, or something like that.

Jaime King:
Exactly. Yeah. We talked about that before, where I was writing for Arianna Huffington, when Huffington Post first launched. A lot of people are like, "Oh, I really love this trend on a runway, but I don't feel like with my body type, I can wear that. I really love this leopard print thing, but I feel kind of afraid." It's like, you could just get socks, animal print socks. Or if it's, "Oh, I can't wear those lines because that wouldn't look good on my body." Whatever it is, just start with a scarf with polka dots, whatever it is. Start small. Again, it's like what you love, right? The more that you start to sort of lean into it, and you're like, "Oh, that feels good. That feels fun. I really like that." Does it bring you joy? Then you start to become more emboldened, empowered to express yourself in that way.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. No, I think that's great advice. It's little things like that. People think they have to wear, or try to be like a certain picture that they saw on InStyle or Vogue, and it's like, that's an extreme jump ahead.

Jaime King:
Completely extreme, yeah. Also, all the work and the curation. Style, it's an energy too, right? Part of style and fashion is also how we carry ourselves, or how we feel in something. So how does something make you feel? Or what do you want to feel more of, and what would that look like in terms of fashion?

Joe Katz:
Right, right.

Jaime King:
It's like red lipstick, right?

Joe Katz:
Oh, right.

Jaime King:
For me, when I put on red lipstick, there's something that it does. It's interesting when you look at red lipstick, with history, even in times of war or the great depression, the one sales that would always remain consistent, if not skyrocket, was red lipstick. I think that says a lot about the power of something seemingly small. Other people are like, "It's war paint." What is that thing that makes you feel more confident in stepping out into the world, even in the middle of a pandemic?

Joe Katz:
That's a good point. Yeah. That's a little risk. It's a little risk. You take these little, smaller risks, you know?

Jaime King:
Little risks.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. Well, I could to keep talking another ... I think we're already at 45 minutes, but I have one burning, last question. What is one thing that you haven't told anybody, that you think could help somebody? One thing you haven't told anybody before, that you're going to share with Joseph Katz on The Katz Walk, that would help somebody in their life?

Jaime King:
Ooh. Hmm.

Joe Katz:
It can be personal, it can be not. It can be inspirational. It can be truthful. I want it to be anything.

Jaime King:
I mean, there's so many different things. I think one thing that I haven't told anyone, that-

Joe Katz:
Could help somebody else.

Jaime King:
Could help someone. Well, we've talked about being different, but really, it's okay to be different. It's okay to feel like you don't belong. It's okay if you don't feel like you're a part of a group. For instance, a lot of the times, whether it's like some big party or a holiday or Disneyland or something like that, I've always had a really challenging time experiencing the same kind of joy that people feel for these things. We're at Disneyland, everyone's so happy. I'm like, "Why am I not as happy as everyone, when we're in the happiest place on earth?" Judging my experiences of, well, it's Christmas day, I should be so joyful. Everyone's celebrating. It's like, "Why don't I feel that same thing?"

Jaime King:
When we have different internal experiences than other people on the outside world, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with us. Because talking about doing what you love, I know that I experience the joy that people feel at Disneyland or a joy that people feel at a party, having a conversation with you. This conversation brings me that kind of joy and that happiness and that oneness and that togetherness, of community and relating to human beings. If you have that experience, know that there are places where you will experience that joy and that happiness. It just may look different than other people, but it's there.

Joe Katz:
That's cool. That's awesome. I love that because we're not alone. Sometimes it's about connecting and being truthful with one another and being truthful with each other about stuff, about how we feel, because I think so much we have shades up. We have certain things in the world, that we portray this image.

Jaime King:
Yeah, or masks.

Joe Katz:
Right? Or masks. Exactly.

Jaime King:
Yeah. Who we are when you go to Ralphs, versus when you're in your car by yourself, or us doing this interview, where we have a connection, we have a capacity, you and I, to be really honest and real, where we can do that. But who we are if we're on a red carpet, or when you're at the bank, or with a lover ... Every person on this planet has thousands of masks, without necessarily even being aware of them. Every time that we can take them off and reveal ourselves and experience that oneness and the connection of community, and that we're all just here, doing the best that we can, really. We're all connected. We're all having a human experience. There's billions, and I mean infinite shades and reference points, of what that looks like. But I do believe, at the core, it's that we all want to love freely and to be loved unconditionally.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. Jaime, thank you so much for being honest.

Jaime King:
Thank you.

Joe Katz:
And to be heartfelt and honest and open and share yourself. I mean, I'm honestly telling you that sometimes people don't always do that. We wear our masks, even in our interviews.

Jaime King:
Yeah.

Joe Katz:
You have to keep them on at all different times, but I appreciate you being truthfully honest and sharing your story and inspiring others. You inspire me.

Jaime King:
You inspire me.

Joe Katz:
I appreciate that.

Jaime King:
Thank you for creating a space to allow that.

Joe Katz:
Thank you.

Jaime King:
It can't happen without you.

Joe Katz:
Well, thanks for-

Jaime King:
It's true.

Joe Katz:
I love it. Thanks so much for ... Yeah. It's really fun to talk to you and to interview you. I feel like I could go on more. I want people to know about your beautiful family and your kids and all that stuff, but we'll talk again.

Jaime King:
We will. We will. I love you. Thank you.

Joe Katz:
All right. Thanks, Jaime.