Steve Mallory: Comedic Actor and Writer Discusses His Career and New Netflix Series

Joe Katz:
Hi, guys. I am so excited for my next guest. It is funny man Steve Mallory. He started his career here at the Groundlings in Los Angeles, where he met Melissa McCarthy. Then went on to write and direct her film, The Boss. And now has a new series coming out on Netflix called, God's Favorite Idiot, with Melissa McCarthy. Did I say Melissa McCarthy? I think I did, check it out. You'll love it. Thank you so much, Steve Mallory for joining my show.

Steve Mallory:
Hello, Joe Katz. And thank you for having me.

Joe Katz:
Oh my God. I love it. I know you are a busy, busy person and I know you're leaving to go out of town. So I caught you before you go into Australia.

Steve Mallory:
I literally didn't have a hairdryer this morning because it's in the luggage. I'm leaving in two days. And my whole family is moving to Australia for eight months.

Joe Katz:
Holy moly.

Steve Mallory:
That's not going to stay with the step family for a couple of days. That's a big move.

Joe Katz:
That's a big move. And you're keeping your house here? Everything stays here?

Steve Mallory:
Yeah, everything stays here. Yeah, because I think I'm coming back.

Joe Katz:
Maybe you'll come back.

Steve Mallory:
In theory. I keep on saying, listen, where I live now, this lovely country of mine is a little bit on probation, like I was on all the time in every school I was ever in. It's like, until you start behaving yourself, you don't get all your permission to do stuff. So I'm going to Australia, and the same time I'm turning around to the country of mine and I'm like, "You listen, you're on probation. You guys got to shape up."

Joe Katz:
Yeah, you're putting the United States on a timeout?

Steve Mallory:
Yeah, they're on a timeout. Do not move your nose out of that corner, young country.

Joe Katz:
Or I will not come back, or maybe I could.

Steve Mallory:
Yeah. Or I will come back and then if I come back there, you're not going to like it. Because I'm going to be pointing my finger a lot.

Joe Katz:
Right. Right. Wow. Well, Steve, that's exciting. So you're going to be gone. We're going to get into all of it, but you're doing a show out there, right?

Steve Mallory:
I am.

Joe Katz:
That's amazing.

Steve Mallory:
A Netflix series with Melissa McCarthy and Ben Falcone, two of my regular partners.

Joe Katz:
Amazing. That's amazing. Oh, we'll get into that because I want to talk about that. But I want people to really know more about Steve Mallory, because I feel you're the brains behind everything. You're the brains behind comedy and great films, and-

Steve Mallory:
That's what I try to tell everybody. Yes, yes.

Joe Katz:
We always say yes. Yes, if you say no, it shuts it all down. I learned that from Holly, she taught me, "No closes the sene."

Steve Mallory:
Agree and amplify, that's my whole job. I'm going to say, actually we concluded a movie in December of last year in Atlanta, and Melissa and Ben gave me this wonderful gift of a sign that said, "You'll think of something." And it's like this beautiful kind of embroidered thing, you'll think of something. Because that is, I think my role on many of our projects and just in general is that my job is to think of something. I think of the funny line or a way to do something or a way to address things. That's kind of what I do. And I like that job. I like-

Joe Katz:
That's a good job.

Steve Mallory:
... that role of, I'll think of something. Yeah.

Joe Katz:
I just, the thought of that, I'm always like, "Oh my God, will I?" But it's like, you just believe it, and it will be.

Steve Mallory:
It's really true. It's really true. And I think as a lot of the creative hyphenats like you are, the second that you allow yourself to creatively address any of the problems or obstacles in front of you. The second that you allow yourself to, it's amazing how quickly they come to. It may not be the perfect solution, but you'll find something. You will find something.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Let's get started because I want people to know who Steve Mallory is. So how did it all start? You grew up where?

Steve Mallory:
I grew up in Washington State.

Joe Katz:
Okay.

Steve Mallory:
And everyone loves to say Seattle because it's a cosmopolitan city and it's one of my favorite cities in the world. But I am a Washingtonian, meaning that I grew up outside Seattle, was born in the Puget Sound area. Went to school for a brief bit in Washington State, which is on Pullman, was in the eastern part, met my wife in the city of Wenatchee, Washington, which is dead center, the apple capital of the world and the buckle of the power belt of the great Northwest.

Joe Katz:
Wow.

Steve Mallory:
As it says below.

Joe Katz:
That's amazing.

Steve Mallory:
The masked head of the Wenatchee world.

Joe Katz:
Great.

Steve Mallory:
So I'm, you know how you people say I'm a man of the world, I'm a man of Washington.

Joe Katz:
Wonderful.

Steve Mallory:
That's where I started, yeah.

Joe Katz:
And so then you went to college. Did you go through four years of school, or no?

Steve Mallory:
No, no, no. God, no. I barely graduated high school.

Joe Katz:
That's awesome.

Steve Mallory:
I only went to college because I got married incredibly young and also, young viewers, and I know you have so many young viewers, don't get married young. It's stupid. I don't know how it worked out. Know the person for a while. We met and moved in together the same day. Again, that's another podcast. We'll do that one later on.

Joe Katz:
And can I ask how old were you when you got married?

Steve Mallory:
22.

Joe Katz:
Oh, wow. That is young.

Steve Mallory:
Yeah.

Joe Katz:
Although, years ago it wasn't so young, but nowadays people wait, but that's good. That's great.

Steve Mallory:
I know. And somehow still married, which is lovely. But she had to finish college. And one of the stipulations of marrying me was that I had to go to college with her, and I wasn't just going to sit in a college town and not go to college. So I went to college. Did, I don't know, a year. And then she graduated and I'm like, "Good." She goes, "Do you want to get your degree or something?" I'm like, "No, no, I'm good. Lets just go."

Joe Katz:
No, we're out of here.

Steve Mallory:
Yeah, I'm fine.

Joe Katz:
Let's get out of here, yeah.

Steve Mallory:
For sure.

Joe Katz:
That's great. So how did you get started in the business, in entertainment? Because I know you did a bunch of other things.

Steve Mallory:
A bunch of other things.

Joe Katz:
Yeah. Because now you've done so many great films and we'll get, because I want to talk about all the films that you've done. I just would like people to understand how did you get started and how Steve Mallory got involved in all of this comedy stuff?

Steve Mallory:
Well, all the while I was this kind of peripatetic lifestyle, this nomadic wandering thing that I was kind of in my youth. And I did, I had a bunch of jobs. I did a couple of weeks of lumber jacking in the Cascade mountains. I was a country music DJ in Wenatchee, Washington. 98FM, kissing country, is a country king of the Swan valley, bringing you all the hot country hits of 1992. Another mix-

Joe Katz:
Next up is Willie Nelson singing-

Steve Mallory:
A Garth Brooks rock block on 98 FM kissing country. The whole bit. Wrote for small town newspapers. I was always moving around trying different things. But I think the one line through it was that there was an element of storytelling to it. I always wanted to have inputs of different types to allow me to kind of tell, my friends say like, "You mythologized your life. You kind of wanted to have these ups and downs and arcs to kind of contextualize what you do and how you approach work." And it all kind of came to a head when my wife and I moved to Southern California, which as a kid I'd actually gone to high school in Irvine, California, so in Orange County.

Steve Mallory:
And when we landed, I said, "Listen, I want to go to the Groundlings. I really want to go to the Groundlings, the Groundlings Theatre," which I never brought up to her, my poor wife, who's, I've been married to for like three years. She's like, "What are you talking about? What are the Groundlings? You want to be an actor?" And I'm like, "I want to go try it. I want to go see." And that's where it all started. Going into the Groundlings was this thing of like, "Oh, this is all the pieces of everything you've kind of wanted in one place." And it became the focus for everything, for I'm going to say 10 years.

Joe Katz:
Wow. How did you know about that? You just had heard about the Groundlings when you were in Washington?

Steve Mallory:
You want to hear the great story? I'm going to unfold one of these great stories. I'm bragging.

Joe Katz:
I'll take it.

Steve Mallory:
In '93, '94 I was driving in Seattle to my waiting job. Also, I waited tables in like 30 different restaurants.

Joe Katz:
Wow.

Steve Mallory:
So we can talk about that, waiter, actor, model type.

Joe Katz:
Yes, all that stuff. You got to make it.

Steve Mallory:
And I heard about the new cast of Saturday Night Live, and it featured Will Ferrell. And I mentioned that I'd gone to high school in Orange County. I went to high school with Will.

Joe Katz:
Oh, you did?

Steve Mallory:
Yeah, all four years.

Joe Katz:
You knew him?

Steve Mallory:
Oh yeah. We did like sketches and morning announcements on the thing, I knew him well, and this is how long ago this was. I wrote him a letter. I sent him a letter to Saturday Night Live and I'm like, "Congratulations. I'm so excited for you. This is amazing. I can't believe it." And then he wrote me a letter back.

Joe Katz:
He wrote a letter back.

Steve Mallory:
There was no, that's how you did it. In the old days email was called letters.

Joe Katz:
I know. Oh, oh, it wasn't an email or it was an email?

Steve Mallory:
No, it was a letter.

Joe Katz:
It was a paper letter?

Steve Mallory:
There was no email, email didn't exist.

Joe Katz:
Wow, that's amazing. [crosstalk 00:09:23] No, I am too, honey. I mean. I had carrier pigeons in my time, so.

Steve Mallory:
I'm using [inaudible 00:09:29] and Kabuki to send messages across.

Joe Katz:
Right. So you sent him a letter. He sent a letter back.

Steve Mallory:
He sent a letter back and one of the things he said in the letter was, "Yeah, I went to the Groundlings and it was the best experience." And he said, "You really should have gone to the Groundlings," because we had the same temperament of wanting to kind of be funny and be creative. And off that letter, I kind of use that. It just stuck in the back of my head. And I'm like, "You know what, you're right. I should go try this." And it was a real foundational thing for me because it was the first time I went. There's a place to put stories and ideas and your cleverness and those kinds of things to use. And it was wonderful. Just wonderful.

Joe Katz:
And if people don't know the Groundlings, the Groundlings is a theater here in Los Angeles, primarily it's comedy and improv, but it's a lot of sketch and in character, right?

Steve Mallory:
It is, yes. It teaches you the fundamentals. It's been around now, oh boy, like 50 years, it's been around for a while. And many of the people that you know and like in comedy, including Melissa McCarthy or Kristen Wiig, or Will Ferrell or Pee-wee Herman, all these people, that was where they all started. And I even taught there for a heartbeat. And one of the first things you tell people is, "We can't make you funny, but if you naturally have some comedy in you, we can show you a way to use it. And how to kind of put the engine into the transmission," that sort of thing.

Joe Katz:
And so then you started doing it and you got in?

Steve Mallory:
I did, yeah. And started doing improv. You start with improvisational. Yes, and, and all those sorts of things. And then moved into creating characters and writing sketches like they do on Saturday Night Live, writing kind of three to six minute pieces with other people on stage and crafting little scenes. And it was so informative and it felt like kind of the culmination of so many things that I'd done where listen, I had been writing and I had, listen, 98 FM, you kind of have to have a character. Like I was, I really liked doing sustained character pieces. So kind of combining those things together, and more than anything, it kind of gave me permission and the confidence to do it. By doing it and seeing you have some modicum of success, it propelled me forward. And then I kind of committed to it. I started auditioning for commercials and everything like every young actor in Hollywood and trying to do several things and cheap movies and bad TV shows. There's some bad TV shows on my IMDb, don't look.

Joe Katz:
You've done it, yeah.

Steve Mallory:
I've done that. And that was it. And literally all of the friends that I have at this day are people that I met there.

Joe Katz:
Wow.

Steve Mallory:
Those are some of my closest friends in the world.

Joe Katz:
And so then you ended up getting on the Sunday Company? There's like a Sunday Company and then there's a main stage. And you started doing all of that?

Steve Mallory:
Yeah. I was in the Sunday Company for a year and a half, which is a very long time to be doing a show-

Joe Katz:
That's a long time.

Steve Mallory:
... every weekend. And I had got on a TV show and I was doing other work. And I was having to take time away from the Sunday Company, which you really can't do until finally I did something that most people don't do. I had to leave, I like say, "I'm sorry, I can't come back and keep doing this. I have to go." And so I asked to leave, I quit so that I could do other work.

Joe Katz:
Wow.

Steve Mallory:
Sometimes I'm like, "I should have stayed, because you, from the Sunday Company, you kind of matriculate up to the main company. But at one point someone said, "You have all the tools in place by the time you're doing a show like that every week, writing new sketches and you're writing hundreds and hundreds of pages of sketches worth a month." And I had all the tools that I really needed. So I was in hindsight, while it was disappointing at the time, but in hindsight I'm like, "It turned out fine."

Joe Katz:
And so then that is where you met Melissa and Ben?

Steve Mallory:
Yes. Yes. Ben and Melissa were also in the Groundlings. They were both in the main company. So they were the seniors, the cool kids in the school, smoking in the corner. And you're looking at them like, "Oh, look how awesome they are." And here's the secret about all theater schools, every theater school in the world. I'm going to say over 50%, could be up to 70% of people go into theater so that they can hook up with other people. I mean, it's just an easiest, if you don't really go into trig, advanced trig to hook up with somebody. In theater-

Joe Katz:
No, right.

Steve Mallory:
In theater class you're like, "You know what, there's a chance I could hook up with somebody in this class." And everyone's kind of open and emotional and connected, and it's so much easier to date. And what happened was when my wife and I met Ben and Melissa, no one else was a couple. Everyone else was there essentially to hookup. Not the only reason.

Joe Katz:
Oh, I thought you meant hook up like business wise, you mean hook up like date wise.

Steve Mallory:
No, no I mean hook up.

Joe Katz:
Oh.

Steve Mallory:
Yeah. Oh yeah.

Joe Katz:
But you already were hooked up?

Steve Mallory:
I was hooked up and Ben and Melissa would hook up. So after a show we'd all be sitting in the lobby and you just kind of see all the other actors pairing off to go off and get drinks. And here are the two semi middle-aged couples going, "Do you guys want to go and get a steak or something? Like go have a glass of wine?" And so honestly, I think a lot of the reason why we became such good friends is because they were a couple and we were a couple and we were kind of like past the trying to find a date version of life. And then we just shared. They're just absolutely our best friends. If they weren't, we certainly wouldn't be flying across the globe and resettling in a foreign country. I mean, they are the loveliest people. And it was right away when we started actually working in collaborating, we made so many small projects.

Steve Mallory:
This is the birth of YouTube. Again, as old as time, as old as time. We would start making small videos and small pieces of material and putting it up and trying to make pieces. And we actually even made a short film. Jeez, 15, 18 years ago. That we all wrote, we all directed and we all acted in, it was going to be like a two weekend project that ended up being like a seven month project, like every short film.

Joe Katz:
Oh wow.

Steve Mallory:
But that was honestly why I said earlier about giving yourself permission, kind of doing allows you to be, I guess. That's what did it, like we all went, "Hey, I bet you, we could make real movies." We made a 20 minute movie. It's not terrible. I mean, it's terrible, but it's not terrible.

Joe Katz:
Wow. And that's how it kind of started. And then. how did your life evolve from that? Did you then, you went on to do the Groundlings, but then your life evolved, you had a kid, right?

Steve Mallory:
Yes. And when I had a kid, there is this kind of entertainment creative lifestyle that you're in before you have kids sometimes I think, and some people can manage to do it when they have kids. But when I had a kid I was like, "Boy, this kind of swinging at a decent paycheck every four months and trying to make enough money to get your Guild, your SAG insurance and those sorts of things. It just didn't feel practical to me." And so when we had a kid, I left Hollywood, I left, I stopped doing it.

Joe Katz:
So with Melissa and all that, you're like, "I'm going to go take a job somewhere."

Steve Mallory:
Yes, yes.

Joe Katz:
Wow.

Steve Mallory:
And they were so supportive like, "You go do it, we understand it." Melissa was still, this was when she was just starting to do stuff like it was right around Bridesmaids time. So she was just kind of building up her resume too. And while I'm working, and I took a job as a public relations executive with a big public relations firm. And I honestly thought that I would be there a couple of years, maybe a couple of years, a year, maybe two, most. But I ended up almost 10 years, nine and a half years or so.

Joe Katz:
Wow.

Steve Mallory:
But all the while that I was there doing my nice executive job and filling out time sheets and all those sorts of things. Every once in a while she would say, "Hey, do you want to come and do a line in Identity Thief? Do you want to come and do it?" I'm like, "Yes." And so there's a small scene at the very beginning of me in Identity Thief, just an opening piece. Or, I would go write an episode of, some friends of mine were producing an animated series. I'd like write an episode. So I was using all my vacation time to go back to work, which my wife said, "You're the dumbest person in the world. Why?" And I'm like, "Because it's what I love to do." I just, I loved it. And listen, I really enjoyed having my job, like having a real job made me feel like an adult and allowed my wife to stay home with our kid and all these wonderful things. But I definitely missed that very immediate, static electricity, crackly lightning, creative that you get from being in that.

Steve Mallory:
And so I would take every opportunity to write something. And Melissa talked to me when I actually, when I first started she goes, "Hey, do you want to try writing a script around a character I had at the Groundlings?" I'm like, "Yes." And we throw out a bunch of ideas and we did a treatment and she pitched it around and we wrote it some more, and wrote it some more, and then it just kind of died. But then as her career started growing, people would say, "Hey, do you have something you'd like to make?" And her first idea was, "I would love to make The Boss," featuring Michelle Darnell, this thing that we had written.

Joe Katz:
Oh, she did Michelle Darnell at the Groundling?

Steve Mallory:
Oh, yes. Yeah, it was-

Joe Katz:
That was one of her characters?

Steve Mallory:
It was one of the best characters, so funny. I love what we did in the film, but there's something so immediate because she was working with audience members, pulling people out of the audience and trying to teach them how to become rich and powerful like her.

Joe Katz:
Yes. Yes, it's so funny. It's like, it's like that multi-level marketing like Mary Kay or any of those. Oh, so that's how it happened. So they said, "Do you want to do a film?" And she said, "I want to do this Michelle Darnell."

Steve Mallory:
And I was taking my weekends and all my vacation time and we were writing and writing and writing with Ben also. And we wrote the movie and I'm like, "Well, this is just a fun exercise." The process of getting a movie made is so difficult and so tedious. And somehow miraculously Universal went, "Yes, let's make Michelle Darnell. Let's make The Boss." And when that happened, I was, because I wrote it, I got to be a producer. And also I was learning how to do this kind of punch up writing on set. So I had to be on set every single day and we're kind of, we'd shoot a scene and that we rewrite and add jokes and add humor and add comedy as we were doing it. And I asked for a leave of absence from my big corporate job so I could go do this. And they went, "Oh, that's exciting. Yes, you should go do that." By this point I was the director of ideation for the company. I was teaching people how to come up with ideas, fun made title, completely.

Joe Katz:
I love that, ideation ideas. Yeah.

Steve Mallory:
Yeah. And so they said, "This is what we would expect I think from somebody with this title that you made up." So I went and made a movie for three months in Atlanta and in Chicago, but also it allowed me to go into our clients, internal and external clients. And talk about the process of coming up with ideas and developing ideas and becoming more robust with ideas, those sorts of things. By using a lot of the structures and ideas and tools that I learned from the Groundlings.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Steve Mallory:
You know, these ideas of agreeing and expanding on something and allowing the first idea out to be crafted and molded, and giving everybody, making it as collaborative possible on ideas and stop trying to make ideas a one man band, which a lot of people like to do.

Joe Katz:
Right. And then you took three months off to do The Boss.

Steve Mallory:
I took three months off to go shoot this. They let me go, which was so lovely of this company. And we made The Boss and it was the time of my life. I mean, it was fantastic. It really was everything that I ever wanted to do, being around all these craftspeople and all these artists, all working together to make one single great thing. And it is a tremendous undertaking to make a movie. And every piece of it I loved, it was so enjoyable. And then I went back to my job. I literarily wrapped being on a movie and having someone bring me coffee twice a day, which is like the greatest part. So do you want a coffee? I'm like, "Yes," I don't have to go get it. Yes, I love it.

Steve Mallory:
And then back to my office and writing briefs and doing scopes of work and things like that, which was so bizarre. But also allowed me to kind of go, "Wait a second. I think I probably just want to make movies if possible," which is, I can't even describe how preposterous it sounds to be able to say that and how privileged I am to be able to do it. But it really was the thing that I wanted to do after I did my first one.

Joe Katz:
And then what happened after the first one?

Steve Mallory:
Well, after that, Ben wrote a movie called Life of the Party and they started moving along, getting that produced. I'm like, "Oh, that will be great." They'll get to be able to do this. And Ben and Melissa said, "Hey, do you want to come and be an associate producer on this movie? We're going to shoot in Atlanta like we did the last one, and you can come and do what you did. Like add jokes and write and help keep the script together and find new ways to coordinate the actual storytelling of it."

Steve Mallory:
And I agreed. And I went back to my boss at my job and said, "Hey, can I get three more months off?" And they're like, "You should probably just go. It seems like that's probably what you should be doing or want to do." And I'm like, "It's not untrue." They go, "Listen, if it all falls apart, you can come back and try this again." I'm like, "Okay great."

Joe Katz:
Oh, that was so nice.

Steve Mallory:
That was enough of.

Joe Katz:
Yeah.

Steve Mallory:
It was lovely. It really was. I mean, it was an abundance of care taking on their part to say, "Listen, you're doing something incredibly scary going out on your own like this, but what you're doing actually can benefit both of us if that turns out." And I haven't had to go back.

Joe Katz:
Amazing.

Steve Mallory:
I haven't had to go back. I keep doing. So associate produced. I think that was my title of associate produce, some sort of producer, Life of the Party. And then out of that, I think Melissa was going to work on Ghostbusters and I went and just did punch up writing on Ghostbusters, working with them there and where we shot in Boston. And then it just either I would write a piece for our little collaborative, or I would participate somehow if I could to help them out. And it's been a really fun last couple. I don't know, five years, six years, however long we've been doing it. It's been magnificent.

Joe Katz:
And just so people know when you say punch up writing, give me an example of a punch up writing.

Steve Mallory:
This is ridiculous. It seems like so contrary to how you would think a ... And I think it is specifically for comedies.

Joe Katz:
Right?

Steve Mallory:
But what happens is a scene is written on the script that performers will perform the script as written. And then as they're doing it, myself, and sometimes often we'll have a couple of other writers with us, on little sticky notes we will write alternate jokes, punchlines, setups, maybe even versions of the scene. Like, could we try it from her perspective or from a different perspective or something like that? And every time the director yells cut, Ben usually, will walk over with this long kind of train of sticky notes and like, "Here's 10 other jokes that they could say instead of this, or to just kind of add on to this, to make somebody funny."

Joe Katz:
Ah right, right.

Steve Mallory:
And the idea isn't for that moment, but it does help that moment because it makes everything feel very organic and fresh when there's new scenes coming. And they do this in sitcoms where new lines will come in and it will kind of invigorate the people in the scene, but also invigorate the audience because it's something unexpected. And when the audience gets involved, then the scene kind of picks up some energy.

Steve Mallory:
So we do this for every scene of the movie, but then when you're in the edit and you're editing the movie and you're kind of seeing the ebb and flow and the energy of the movie, there's always an option to kind of go. "Maybe we should try this joke. Maybe there's one extra little piece. We should just let them say this, just to see if it changes it or connects it somehow else." And it gives you a little bit of wiggle room in the edit to create comedy or even to sometimes drop comedy if the scene doesn't require it. Or you've already had a couple laughs, so you need people to finish laughing, that's a big thing. Sometimes you'll write a joke too close to the last joke and they don't even hear the second joke because there's too much laughing.

Joe Katz:
Oh, and so then you have all those options in the editing to go, "Use that first joke and now use the fourth joke we did," or something like that?

Steve Mallory:
Exactly right.

Joe Katz:
Got it. Interesting. Wow.

Steve Mallory:
So it's very helpful in that space. And it can be transformative. You can change an entire scene, a movie that we just finished in December. It's called Thunder Force and it will be out on Netflix, I believe on Memorial Day, which is exciting. Superhero movie with Melissa McCarthy and Octavia Spencer.

Joe Katz:
Oh they play this-

Steve Mallory:
It's really funny.

Joe Katz:
Oh, they played the super heroes. Okay.

Steve Mallory:
They play superheroes.

Joe Katz:
And did you wrote and were there punching up?

Steve Mallory:
Correct. Yeah, I was, I never know my title. I think it was an executive producer, but doing the same sort of work. Doing the same sort of work where you're creatively trying to amplify all the scenes. And in this one also there was a couple of moments where I got to, I think, through writing something and because also I'm so close with Melissa and Ben now. We have a bit of a shorthand where you can actually change the pace of a scene. Like we had a scene that had a lot of CGI that was going to be participating, that was helping. And it was like, "Boy, this is going to be a heavy lift. It's an expensive CGI piece." I'm like, "There's a little comedy performance thing you could do here that might eliminate 70% of it."

Steve Mallory:
And I wrote out a quick little snippet and I'm like, "Could we try this? Can we just try this little comedy thing where it's more about a performance and less about the expensive CGI of it?" And it turned out really funny.

Joe Katz:
Wow.

Steve Mallory:
It's a piece, I'm patting myself on the back, so funny. But it was my sitting there and writing the comedy. But then also trying to look at the bigger picture of this is going to cost a lot. That money could go someplace else potentially. Those sorts of things are what I get to do now. Solving little micro problems and trying to amplify a story. And it goes back to the Groundlings. Agreeing to what's happening and then amplifying what's happening as much as you can.

Joe Katz:
Right, right. But you know, I'm just thinking when you were talking about it, a lot of people get stuck, Steve, where they get in their corporate job, like you got, it's very comfortable. We go, "Oh wow." We get our benefits. We get all these types of things. How do you ... A lot of people, I feel like are you that are like, "I always wanted to be an actor. I always wanted to be a director." What advice would you give somebody to go, "I want to break away from my corporate job. I've been there for 10 years or 15 years. How do I get out? I don't know a lot of people."

Steve Mallory:
The velvet handcuffs.

Joe Katz:
It is, yeah.

Steve Mallory:
And they're so comfortable. It's just a wonderful, beautiful, you know, they go with everything. I'll tell you. The secret to me has always been. And I think this is, if you are a creative, you want to be in a creative space. You have to make things. You have to make things. And not just, "Oh, I'm taking a stab at it." You have to beginning, middle and end whatever you're doing. If you have a desire to be a creative, you have to create. And so all the time I was working a job, every moment I got, I would pull out video cameras and stuff and make a little short video that just amused my friends. Or I would work on a script every night. It was, I would come home, spend time with my family, and right after dinner, go sit on my patio and just type something that worked.

Steve Mallory:
And at no point, all the way, all the time that I was working in my big boy job, I was not writing a script of some sort. Just plunking away with no ambitions of ever even doing it. That I kind of had mentally said, I'm tabling that part of my life, but I enjoyed it. And frankly, there's a freedom to it. You have a job, you have a job.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Steve Mallory:
And if you want to be a creative and you want to create, just do it for the love of doing it, just do it because you love the act, the process. And maybe somebody will enjoy it, reading it or seeing your little video or whatever you're doing. And so it becomes almost a pure version of creative because you're not looking for an outcome. You're looking for the thing itself, you're in the process of doing. And it was, it was okay. I mean, it's listen, it's a lot of energy to constantly generate.

Joe Katz:
Sure.

Steve Mallory:
But you know, it's like anything, it's like working out, I guess.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, and keeping that muscle going. Yeah, exactly.

Steve Mallory:
Exactly, exactly. And surrounding yourself with other people too is the other big part of it. I was surrounded by other creatives who were still working in that space that I liked so much. And being in a community, I can't stress that enough. Being in a community of creatives Find that group, find your little clan of creatives is so helpful because it encourage you and it normalizes the creative process. It kind of gives you permission to keep doing it regardless of what you're actually doing.

Joe Katz:
You don't feel so alone, right?

Steve Mallory:
Exactly. And there's no, every version of it's okay. You know, you could be during the day waiting tables and selling $50 martini someplace, but it doesn't diminish the fact that you're still a creative, that you're still an actor, a writer, whatever it is you're doing. You can still be those things, you know?

Joe Katz:
There's so many comedies out there and there's so much competition. What do you think makes yours funny and successful? And I know it's like sometimes it's an innate talent, but it's like, The Boss did so amazing in the box office, $79 million, didn't it? Or something like that?

Steve Mallory:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did okay with them.

Joe Katz:
You did okay, yeah.

Steve Mallory:
I think the thing that I, my signature is that what we're saying, what's my vision?

Joe Katz:
Yeah, well like, [crosstalk 00:33:07] what makes yours, because there's so many comedies and some are like, you know?

Steve Mallory:
I have to say that the thing that I really, really like in a comedy that's important to me is a very human element. I really like there to be the idea that people are essentially, there's goodness in people and there's a fairness and that people are always striving to be the best version of themselves. And that's the process, even in Superintelligence it was, we said in a line, that people are good and people are worth saving. That might be the underscore of everything I write that it is about people kind of finding their innate goodness and doing, making hard choices to do the right thing. And that's not a comedy thing, that is a storytelling thing. And it's a storytelling thing that I like, because I believe it. So if there's one thing that I do differently, I think is, not differently, but I lean into. I lean into the most human version of a story, the thing that allows people's humanity to shine. And then try to make a bunch of jokes around it.

Steve Mallory:
I always say, "Listen, if someone said, could you make a comedy out of Kramer vs Kramer?" A very serious dramatic divorce that scarred every divorced kid in the world in the '70s. It's such a good story that it's like, "Could I make that a comedy?" "Yeah."

Joe Katz:
You can make it.

Steve Mallory:
Yes, because the story is in place.

Joe Katz:
Oh, I see.

Steve Mallory:
Could I make it a lot funnier? Yes. But the poignancy and the power of it is still there. So it's, create a really compelling story and then find the comedy. In Superintelligence, I literally took the idea of a Terminator movie and flipped it, like the first moments of when a artificial intelligence take over the world. Instead of them immediately launching all the missiles, might they try to understand humanity a little bit more and then was able to tell a story that we'd seen before, of a computer taking over the world, but make it funny, but also connect it to the great human drama.

Joe Katz:
In that Superintelligence Melissa was just like a woman, your everyday woman that-

Steve Mallory:
The most average woman in the world.

Joe Katz:
Yes, the most average woman, right.

Steve Mallory:
You actually say it, the most average woman in the world.

Joe Katz:
Then she got involved in this whole thing and it's like, I think maybe that's why, that's interesting how you connect the two and make it relatable and then funny.

Steve Mallory:
I think that's what I do the most. I'm writing several scripts right now. And it is the thing that I look at the most. I really want to see people, normal people, not comedic characters. Because I'll say this, Melissa, I think is so good at doing comedy because everybody that sees a character she does goes, "I know somebody like that." I feel the authenticity, the genuine kernel of the character in the middle of it. And even though there might be a wig or a high neck turtleneck that she always wears in The Boss, it's like, "No, no, she's essentially my aunt Debbie."

Steve Mallory:
People go, they see the genuine, authentic person within the character. And I kind of want to do the same thing in scripts. I want people to go, "That's a version of me. That's my life. That is something I've gone through. Something I can identify with." And then allow the comedy to kind of guide you through and lift the energy of those scenes. So that it's not just a kid in the middle of a terrible divorce, like in Kramer vs Kramer, there's kind of this blithe and fun energy around them.

Joe Katz:
Where do you get your ideas? Like if you're thinking of a new movie for Melissa or you're thinking of something that you're trying to create, where do you come up?

Steve Mallory:
I think it is less about coming up with them, but being opportunistic when an idea does come. I think everybody probably has at least one good idea. I know this because I don't think I have a relative who hasn't emailed me their idea for the movie. This is the movie. They do it, and God bless them because it's there.

Steve Mallory:
But when the idea comes, it's your job to go, "Okay, idea. I'm going to write you down in my notes act," just to have the idea just the square it, write it out as much as, and spend a couple of minutes with the idea so that it's there. I think we all have ideas coming at us all the time. It's just being opportunistic with them. Like, okay, if the universe is shoving this little kernel in, then jump on it, jump on it and put it down and let it foment and let it kind of breathe and see what comes of it. So I think it's less about coming up with them and just taking advantage of them when they come. And not trying to force it, not sitting there.

Joe Katz:
Right. Will, you look at a person like a Michelle Darnell or character and go, "Ooh, this would be funny to do about an older woman that lives in Texas or a woman that wears high turtlenecks or something?" Do you do it around a character or is it more around the story?

Steve Mallory:
I have to say I'm probably more story-driven.

Joe Katz:
Okay.

Steve Mallory:
I'm more story-driven and then I will then spend time on a character because the story is the platform. It is kind of like what we're going to build on, beginnings of sene middle and end. And high tension scenes and self-reveal scenes. Finding the character, finding a character within it that makes all those things feel more powerful, feel more interesting. And then I've had the tremendous luxury of being able to write for one of the best actors alive right now. And being able to talk with her. And I'm thinking, a character like this would really be able to participate in this movie. And she can find different levels and stuff like that-

Joe Katz:
That's amazing, yeah.

Steve Mallory:
Which is, I mean, that's a gift on itself. And not that I've only written for her, I've written for other people. It's the same idea is, create a character that would definitively be in that place that has a really distinct point of view. And then mold it, mold it when you find the actress, I got to work with Caitlin Olson. Kaitlin Olson, who's going to spend 18 years on Sunny in Philadelphia, which is just insanity now. But I did a show for Quibi.

Joe Katz:
Oh yeah.

Steve Mallory:
Quibi, if people remember, earlier this year, it was an actual streaming platform.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, the renovation show, right?

Steve Mallory:
Yes. Yeah, Flint. And it was the same idea that my writing partner and I had to write a character that was really distinct, really specific. And then once you give it to a talented actress like Kaitlin, it becomes more than what you anticipated. But also you've written it to allow her to kind of find the beats and go bigger, or smaller if she wants to.

Joe Katz:
Right. What is like a funny story that either personally or professionally that happened on set or with Melissa? It always seems like it would be funny. And I know that there's a lot of work that goes in, it's not all just funny. But I just was curious, was there a funny moment that stood out to you that was like, oh my God?

Steve Mallory:
Listen, there's very few unfunny moments. When you are working, Melissa loves doing what she does. And she loves her husband and working with her husband, and those two create such great energy. And then being able to be a fifth wheel or a third wheel, a part of that is the best. And there's so many things. A lot of the stuff that I love is when she, Melissa loves to bite off more than she can chew a lot of time for a scene. Sometimes it involves a stunt. Sometimes it involves a really complicated wordy scene and she is fighting to do it as well as she can, and see her in the scene struggle. One of the first things that popped in my head was, the one scene I did with her during Identity Thief, there was a stunt and the stunt was, she was going to jump up on a chandelier and swing and then crash through a table.

Joe Katz:
And she was going to do it herself, not a stunt person?

Steve Mallory:
And yes. And I'm like, "No, you can't do it. You can't do it." She's like, "I'm doing this, I'm doing this." I'm like, "Don't do this, don't do this." Just begging her like, "Please reconsider. I don't want you to do this." She goes, "There's pads. It's great. I'm going to have the stunt woman do it first so I can see it." And we sat there and they ran the rehearsal with the stunt woman, we were watching. And the stunt woman falls, doesn't manage to do the stunt. She's fine, but she lands kind of hard. And Melissa looks at me, she's like, I'm like cut. And she's like, "Maybe there's another way to do this." I'm like, "Exactly right. Exactly right. Exactly right."

Joe Katz:
Wow. Yeah.

Steve Mallory:
But it's her terrific ambition to want to try something more, to go bigger. And she beats herself up. We, in Superintelligence, there was a point where she was going to think she was doing carpool karaoke and she started singing a song. And she goes, "I don't know if I like that song, I don't know if I like that song." She goes, "What's a funny karaoke song?" And I'm like, "One Week by the Barenaked Ladies."

Joe Katz:
Oh.

Steve Mallory:
Which is the chicken to China, the Chinese chicken, you have a drum stick and your brain starts ticking. And it's this really, really fast kind of rootsy wrappy thing in the middle of the song. And she goes, "Oh, that's it." And the second she started, I'm like, "This is going to take forever." But she got so committed to getting the words right then-

Joe Katz:
And she got it.

Steve Mallory:
And she got it. She got it. But her being so flustered and working towards it, you can't help but it's like, "Just find an easier song that you know." But she wanted it.

Joe Katz:
Right, she wanted to do it.

Steve Mallory:
There's something just, you're just ... I'm so filled with pride, but it's also hilarious to watch her just work it, work it, work it to do it. It's fantastic.

Joe Katz:
Being that this is, we talk about fashion. What's your sense of style, Steve? I know we chatted something and I know you love those sweaters that you have. You have very-

Steve Mallory:
I literally am wearing-

Joe Katz:
You love your Merino wool sweaters?

Steve Mallory:
Wool is a miracle, I'm just going to say it. Fair enough-

Joe Katz:
I think there is a movie there.

Steve Mallory:
That's my fashion. Yeah, it's a miracle fabric guys, it breaths, it stays clean. It's anti-microbial naturally. I just love wool. Darn tough Merino wool socks from a company in Vermont, the wool sock, very thin, it's a mix fabrics. Okay, but what's my style? Now we're getting to stuff I'm interested in.

Joe Katz:
How would you describe your style?

Steve Mallory:
I'm going to say that first off I really like style and clothing a lot. And frankly, as a chubby middle-aged guy, I shouldn't. Because it's very difficult to craft a look for a thick centered fellow like myself. Who has disproportionately short legs. I'm six foot tall, and my [inaudible 00:44:52] seems like 28 inches.

Joe Katz:
Interesting.

Steve Mallory:
I'm like a bumblebee that shouldn't be able to fly. Like its wings should be able to support itself. I shouldn't be able to propel myself.

Joe Katz:
Everything works fine though.

Steve Mallory:
It works. But if I had my druthers, I would love to be an elegant suit guy. I actually really miss suits. I miss suits so much during this pandemic. And there's no opportunity to kind of put on a lovely three piece suit with a really wonderful contrasting colored tie. That's my dream. I wish I could be, do you know the director Paul Feig from Bridesmaids who directed Ghostbusters?

Joe Katz:
Oh right, right, right, right.

Steve Mallory:
His suits. Oh my God. But he's also this tall, thin elegant. I mean, he's a dandy and he would say he's a dandy and I'm jealous of that. Of course, we're all jealous [inaudible 00:45:44], but he has these beautiful tapered legs suits and gorgeous shoes. And he literally carries a walking cane often.

Joe Katz:
Wow.

Steve Mallory:
And that kind of elegant kind of bespoke English influence style is wonderful. I love that. I cannot pull that off. Also, what I know about myself is that I have kind of a boyish face, which is great. And so if I was going to lean into anything, I would say I would lean into kind of the parochial kind of yappy handbook stuff. Kind of an Oxford style. So I'll wear a lot of textured jackets. I'll do a corduroy or a [crosstalk 00:46:28] or something like that if I'm going to dress up. I really do like wearing, if I'm wearing a uniform, this isn't far off from a uniform, I'll always wear a nice button-down shirt, often in different colors. But if you're going to see my face, it's always a dark blue or dark black because my eyes really pop.

Joe Katz:
No, I know they're popping now. People got to tune into YouTube to see it pop, but it's popping.

Steve Mallory:
You're going to see it.

Joe Katz:
You're going to see it. Yes.

Steve Mallory:
So if I'm having a conversation with somebody, I'll try to accentuate what I've got, which is I've got pretty eyes, so I'm going to wear a darker blue. I like to wear, and this is for all, I'm going to put a call out to all guys that are heavier set.

Joe Katz:
Okay.

Steve Mallory:
Just heavier set. Wear fitted clothes, guys, you have to wear things that are fitted. You can't have that blusar off your shirt. You can't have a billowness around the tops of your thighs with a pleated pants. Even if it's not comfortable to you, wear a fitted pant, listen, there's stretch fabric now in men's pants is magnificent, and it cleans up your lines and it makes you look taller, it makes you look thinner. Where I think guys that carry weight will wear clothes that billow trying to hide it and not understand that it's making themselves look boxier and bigger, which-

Joe Katz:
They think it hides things. And it's like, it actually kind of makes you look bigger, like you said, and it makes you, you need to keep it. It doesn't have to be a skinny jean, but it can be more of a fitted. Yeah, that's a great advice.

Steve Mallory:
What else is my thing? I love layering. I do, I really do like layering. Wearing a shirt, a sweater. I have a nice collection of like car coats when it's cool. I feel Jonty, kind of like something out of a [crosstalk 00:48:12] catalog. And you know, playing around with colors. They don't want to be too stodgy. I feel like the second you get into your 50s and 60s, men just kind of default to a set of colors.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Steve Mallory:
You know, they won't kind of explore it. So I have a pair of Abrand Jean pants. Oh, I'm actually wearing my Abrand Jean pants right now. I'm not going to show you, I'm not going to stand up. But kind of like an eggplant, like that's fun. And it's colorful and playful.

Steve Mallory:
And especially as a creative, I'll say this, when I was in the corporate world, I had a wonderful mentor.And I was going to a meeting as the creative director for a project. And I was wearing a suit and I showed up and she goes, "No, no, not that." I'm like, "What do you mean?" She goes, "Take off the jacket, roll up your sleeves. You want to say you're a creative. You want to look like a creative." And she goes, "And you look like everybody else." And it was such good advice to dress for the expectation.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Steve Mallory:
That if you're going to be dressed, you want to dress to tell the story of what ... You want it to be. I say that it'll be lights up exposition. The second the lights come up, you want people to look at you and kind of go, "I kind of know where the story is going."

Joe Katz:
Oh right.

Steve Mallory:
And you can use it both ways. You can surprise them by dressing one way and acting another, or sometimes amplifying the message that you're saying by what you're wearing. Clothing is part of the storytelling process. Personal story telling as well. The one thing I remember from my one semester of communications classes at Washington State University, is there's something called meta communication. It is the communication that we're giving with how we look, how we're responding and those types of things, and clothing is part of the meta-communication. I'm telling you part of me by how I'm dressed or what I want you to believe about me.

Joe Katz:
And once we see you, we have 30 seconds. We always say that about fashion that we determine, I like her. I don't like him. I love that he's got that vibe. Or, whatever it is, we read quickly.

Steve Mallory:
Exactly right. And I rarely go off script. I rarely try to, very rarely will you see me in grays and blacks and moodiness, because that's just not who I am. Because then they would see me it's like, "Why are you dressing like this when you can't stop talking? And you're all effervescence," like I just generally am. So those are like, I put thought into dressing up. I miss dressing up, Joe. Pandemic sucks.

Joe Katz:
I know. Well, now you're going to be pandemic free. You're going to Australia. You don't have to wear masks. You don't have to do anything. It's amazing, right?

Steve Mallory:
Yeah. But it's also going to be like 80% humidity and 90 degrees, I'm going during summer. So now I'm in light linens.

Joe Katz:
Oh, that's right.

Steve Mallory:
I'll be doing some, what's kind of pattern, light linens.

Joe Katz:
Oh lovely.

Steve Mallory:
I'll have some nice shorts, although here's my problem. I'm going to Byron Bay, Australia, which Ben and Melissa are already in. And they have informed me that very few people wear shoes. People are very barefoot, it's that kind of place.

Joe Katz:
I'm not a barefoot. Are you barefoot kind of person?

Steve Mallory:
No.

Joe Katz:
Me neither.

Steve Mallory:
No. God no, I want shoes.

Joe Katz:
How about flip-flops?

Steve Mallory:
Barely.

Joe Katz:
I don't either. I'm not a big flip-flop.

Steve Mallory:
I don't have the toe for it either.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, I'm not good with the flip-flop.

Steve Mallory:
No. So, I'm bringing a selection of nice brand new white low cut sneakers.

Joe Katz:
Nice.

Steve Mallory:
Because I feel like I can pair that kind of a soft white shoe with a linen short and a breezy shirt. That sort of thing. I'll also feature a couple of Panama straw hats.

Joe Katz:
Oh lovely.

Steve Mallory:
Maybe I'm taking down. Very cabana wear. I mean, but I can pull it off. I can pull it off.

Joe Katz:
Steve, we have gone on and on and I love talking to you. I could talk to you all day. You're such a great communicator and a great writer and funny. I have one last question for you that I always ask everybody. What have you not told anybody ever, even your wife, not even your wife, that could help somebody else?

Steve Mallory:
Yeah, I'm going to give you two.

Joe Katz:
Okay.

Steve Mallory:
I'm going to give you two. I think the thing that holds so many people back when they want to do a creative endeavor is they become so concerned with how it will be perceived. We're so wrapped up with what people will think. What if somebody reads it and they don't like it? We want to dwell upon the negative pieces of our creative process and we're trying to prejudge it. And I did it forever. I did it forever. I wrote my first TV script while I was still in the Groundlings. And I literally, a friend of mine was on the TV show and they said, "Hey, if you ever written anything, let me see it." And I wrote it and I never ever gave it to her. Because I was so fearful that she would judge it harshly, and that would destroy me.

Steve Mallory:
And so my advice to somebody is, not to have the courage, but don't put so much merit in how other people are going to perceive what you're making. Just make it and make it for you and love that you're doing it. Love the process and love yourself enough to let it go. Know that it's, that you're creative. Your creative should be the only reason that you have the idea or the creativity to do it is because it's meant to exist. Know that. And don't allow yourself to block yourself. And I feel like that is something that's so many people do. They have such wonderful ideas. I don't want you to read it. I don't want to show it to anybody because it feels like a small death. And I'm like, that's the secret. The secret is to get past that moment. And to find a way to wrap your arms around whatever you make and love it for what it is and not worry about the merits for other people.

Joe Katz:
Because we don't want to be judged. We don't want to be people-

Steve Mallory:
Exactly.

Joe Katz:
We don't want people to judge us. Yeah.

Steve Mallory:
And creativity feels so personal. And I understand it, but you really do, that I think is the barrier for so many people. And if I could literally grant people the ability to just move past those feelings, that would be the blessing everybody deserves. And we all feel that way. We all feel that way.

Joe Katz:
Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Mallory:
My second one would be the secret would be shapewear for men. You can't underestimate shapewear for men. My God men stay away from it and you shouldn't. Man you want a clean flat shirt, shapewear.

Joe Katz:
Do you wear it?

Steve Mallory:
All the time.

Joe Katz:
You do?

Steve Mallory:
Oh my God, yes. The first time I was on set and I had to wear something, one of the dressers was like, "Hey, I got you a piece of shapewear," and just was very kind of like, and I'm like, "Great. I'll put it on." You know, Spanx for men. Spanx for men. Everything lays so clean. All your shirts lay so flat and every layer that you put on just lays flat, it makes you look, it also sits you up a little bit straighter, because there's a little pole. And so your posture is better. You move a little bit more elegantly, all your close lay better. It's even if it's just 5% better, you feel 20% better in your head. Shapewear for men. If you're going out on a first date, if you're going for a job interview, if you're going to a red carpet event, wear shapewear, unless you're built like Brad Pitt, or someone like that-

Joe Katz:
Then you don't need to. Yeah, that's interesting. And you'll wear it when you go to dinner with someone or if you're going ... Is it only if you're going to do it like in a show? When you're going to be in a movie, you wear it?

Steve Mallory:
No, no. If there's going to be a thing where I'm out and about. And I think everybody wants to at a time or two feel specially good that evening.

Joe Katz:
Right.

Steve Mallory:
I want to look more attractive. I want to feel more presentable. It's like, it's not the cologne, it's none of that, it's shapewear. Shapewear will give you everything you're looking for. I promise.

Joe Katz:
That's the new go-to for men. Shapewear is it.

Steve Mallory:
A new go-to.

Joe Katz:
That's an amazing gift.

Steve Mallory:
Shapewear is it. If 2021 has taught us anything, we all need shapewear, especially after eating all of our sourdough breads of 2020.

Joe Katz:
I love it. That's amazing. Steve, you've been fabulous. Thank you so much for joining my show.

Steve Mallory:
Thank you, Joe.

Joe Katz:
And good luck in Australia. And I can't wait to see the things coming out, the film that's coming out and then the Australia-

Steve Mallory:
Yeah, Superintelligence you can watch now on HBO Max. Download that, we'll have Thunder Force out Memorial day. And I tell you to go watch the Quibi show, but you just-

Joe Katz:
It's gone, yeah. But I watched Superintelligence. It was so funny on HBO. I love that. So I'm excited to see the one with Octavia Spencer and Melissa McCarthy coming up.

Steve Mallory:
You'll love it, it's a lot of fun.

Joe Katz:
And I'm excited to see the show you're going to do on Netflix, which will probably come out in a year or so, right?

Steve Mallory:
Yeah. At least we'll see. Well, all this is so new and interesting, this new world, so we'll get it done as quick as we can.

Joe Katz:
Awesome. All right. Thanks, Steve.

Steve Mallory:
Thank you.

Joe Katz:
See you later.

Steve Mallory:
Okay.

Joe Katz:
All right.

Steve Mallory:
Bye.

Joe Katz:
Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to The Katz Walk. Make sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. This has been a production of Evergreen Podcast, a special thank you to executive producer, Gerardo Orlando, producer Leah Longbrake and audio engineered Dave Douglas.