Chaos Theory with Nic Stone

Annmarie Kelly:

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[Music Playing]

Annmarie Kelly:

So, Nic Stone and I recorded this interview when she was on a book tour with her six year old son. He was helping her sign new copies at indie stores, and the two of them were sharing one small hotel room when Nic and I sat down for our interview.

As you can probably imagine, this conversation was tricky. We had to pause once to help her kiddo with his WiFi password and another time because he was hungry. And once more when someone knocked on the door. It was a lot.

I'm sharing this because in our carefully curated social media lives, and even sometimes on podcasts, we only show our finished selves. We buff out what's messy, cut interruptions, and skip over things that just don't land right.

And as a result, people can think that we are clever, and patient, and delightful all the time. On a logical level, we all know this isn't the case. But emotionally, especially when we're online, we forget and we keep comparing our messy insides to everyone else's Photoshopped outsides.

The fact is, you have no idea how many takes it took for your favorite influencer to achieve that particular look, or how many TikTok takes it took for a video to land just so.

So, if you feel like you hear SpongeBob in the background of this conversation today, it's because you do.

As any working parent knows, children exist and they need things. And nobody, not even the indescribably talented Nic Stone can do it all perfectly all the time. Which is actually pretty great to know, and it gives me hope for my life.

So, Nic and I keep it authentic and real today. We talk mental health, and neuro divergence, and anti-racism, and pop culture. And if you don't know Nic Stone yet, hold onto your hat because now's your chance to meet a force to be reckoned with.

Nick Stone was born and raised in a suburb of Atlanta, Georgia. And the only thing she loves more than an adventure is a good story about one.

After graduating from Spelman College, she worked extensively in teen mentoring and lived in Israel for a few years before returning to the US to write full-time.

Growing up with a wide range of cultures, religions, and backgrounds, Nic Stone strives to bring these diverse voices and stories to her work. She's the author of 13 books, including Dear Martin, Odd One Out, and most recently, Chaos Theory.

Nic Stone, welcome to Wild Precious Life.

Nic Stone:

Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, we are today years old, and this is the absolute first time that we're meeting, which feels a little bananas because I have hung out with all your people. I searched for a lost lottery ticket with Rico and Zan.

I hid in a playground rocket ship with Justyce and Quan, I have cruised in Scoob's grandma's camper. And I watched that game where Shenice “Lightning” Lockwood hit that line drive on her softball team.

And most recently, I have hiked to the top of whatever that mountain was that Shelbi dragged us up so we could do some sort of yoga Pilates workout with the boy she called Walter.

So, you and I know all these same people, but we didn't know each other. So, I'm jazzed to finally complete the circle.

Nic Stone:

Facts, and I appreciate your appreciation of all of these people who talk in my head all the time.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, I'm a fan.

Nic Stone:

It's great.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm a fan. But before we take any bigger, like deep dive into your writing, I wonder if you can just start us out with some background on you. Nic Stone, will you tell us your story?

Nic Stone:

Yeah. So, recently my birth hospital closed and I feel like something in me like shriveled and withered and fell apart.

I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and I used to pass it all the time and it was very validating passing the hospital where I was born. But I guess there's just time for new things.

I started writing because I did not see myself in literature growing up, and now, I put myself everywhere that I don't see myself because I can't …

Welcome to my life, friends. So, the voice you're hearing in the background is my beloved six year old who is on tour with me and he wants access to WiFi.

Annmarie Kelly:

I mean, don't we all?

Nic Stone:

So, we're going to give it to him real quick. But his name is Milo. He's another one of the reasons I write. Partially because tuition is expensive and also, because it's important to me that he sees reflections of himself in literature.

The real life, this is-

Annmarie Kelly:

Decisions were made.

Nic Stone:

Yes, decisions were made.

Annmarie Kelly:

Decisions were made.

Nic Stone:

Wild life, indeed.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright. You told me that your hospital closed and yes, we were talking about you not seeing yourself in books and now, writing them so that you and kids like your children and other kiddos who didn't see themselves represented in books, can now, too.

Nic Stone:

Yeah. And so, like it's important to me that I … and what's interesting. So, all of this was sparked by me encountering a person who had a story that I'd never heard before.

So, I was in what is probably the most publicly fraught place on earth. I was in Jerusalem, Israel, wanted to go into Bethlehem to see where the great lord Jesus was born.

And at this point, I am intensely evangelically Christian. And I'm thinking I'm going to go to Bethlehem, I'm going to go see this Church of the Nativity, is what it's called.

And when I go there I'm thinking like full reenactment. Like we going to walk in there, they going to have a manger, it's going to be some animals. They just got a whole stage, the whole thing so we get an idea of what the Lord's birth was like.

You go in there and really what you find is a plexiglass covered hole in an underground cave that apparently is … it was just one of those incredibly anti-climactic moments that I was just like, “Really?”

And then it also, made me question myself. Like it made me question, what is it that I was actually here looking for?

Well, it turns out I was going to be staying with this Arab Christian family who has been in Bethlehem for like five generations or something. And I'm staying with them, I'm talking to them, and I discover that they have four sons and one daughter. Their daughter really kind of latched onto me because she was always surrounded by boys.

And she tells me that her one ambition is to go to university in the UK. And I'm like, “Okay, that seems feasible. What's the problem?” And she tells me that she can't because she doesn't have a passport.

And I'm like, “Well, go get a passport.” Like my American self, like, “Okay, go get a passport.” And she's like, “Well, I can't get a passport. I don't have a country of nationality.” And I was like, “Ah, something that would've never crossed my mind.”

And that's when I decided I wanted to be a storyteller. She doesn't have a country of nationality, which means you can't get a passport. You don't have an embassy, you don't have a governing body that can grant you permission to cross an international border. And that was my spark.

I think that for a long time I probably wanted to tell stories but didn't really think that I could, because I never saw myself in them.

But it took me seeing that there was someone else who was definitely not seeing their story for me to recognize that like, “Oh, there are stories that need to be told that nobody's telling.”

Annmarie Kelly:

So, I too have actually visited that cave a hundred million years ago when my husband and I first got married. We thought it would be romantic to go to Israel. And it was a lot of things, but romantic, one of them, so the cave.

But one of my favorite things about that journey and kind of any travel actually is how sometimes like the thing that you're bee lining toward and like, “I am searching for that there,” exactly like you said, it doesn't turn out to hold the majesty that you thought.

But there are other details I remember. Like the ladies selling rosaries on the side of the road, these little wooden carved things and the doorway for the camels. Because you're right, there were no animals, there was no manger like I knew.

But there were camel shaped doorways in those churches from when they used to bring the animals in. And then there were these columns where like all the paint had been licked off to like camel neck height.

And something about like the licked off camel paint, I was just like, “Oh my god, people have been coming here for so long. It's been so long, their camels ate all the paint.” And like that's the kind of — I find majesty and like magic in those kinds of details. And those are the kinds of stories that are never told.

One of the things I think you do really well in your books is you take like big issue stuff like racism, criminal justice reform, economic inequity. You take capital letter issues and then you've just got the paint licking camels. You've got these stories that sneak up on us and you hide big stuff in these tender beautiful stories.

So, what you're describing about Israel, I completely see that even 13 books later in your books. I mean, one of the things I remember seeing a class field trip in Jerusalem and it was the line leader, just like we had, the person in charge had a gun.

And then the kids were in line and then the person in the back had a gun. I will never forget that. And I feel like the way you tell stories is like that.

Nic Stone:

Yeah. I mean, for me, like these are only issues because they happen to people. If they're not happening to people, they aren't issues for us for the most part.

So, we do this thing where we like detach the issues from the people they're affecting and then we treat the issue as though the issue is either something we can cast aside or something we can pretend doesn't exist.

But once you detach the issue from the people, it just loses its weight, it loses its meaning. So, for me, it's really important to make sure that there are people in the books that happen to be dealing with stuff that's out of their control and that they have to figure out ways to either cope with or get around.

Annmarie Kelly:

100%. Well, your most recent book, Chaos Theory is the story of Shelbi and Andy, whom she calls Walter, who meet after Walter's involved in a drunk driving accident. And these two are navigating forces that are sometimes bigger than they are that they can understand and, or forces inside of them that they're still figuring out.

They go on to have a friendship that attempts to be open about mental health, about addiction. I come from a family where our mental health challenges and addictions were hidden or shameful as kind of one side of the family.

On the other side of the family that was more like they were deemed as like weaknesses. Like if you were stronger, you would've been able to snap out of that. You like self-indulge in almost.

So, I know part of that's the time period I was raised in, but that does not excuse the danger that those kinds of mindsets have. Or like the consequences like individuals in my family did not get help because they felt ashamed of needing it.

When you were growing up, like how did conversations about mental health and addictions show up or not show up in your family?

Nic Stone:

I mean, I feel like we're probably about the same age.

Annmarie Kelly:

You look younger though, so we're going to talk about that later.

Nic Stone:

It's just melanin, melanin. That's the only reason I look younger. I'll be 38 in July. So, I was born in 1985 and grew up the ‘80s, ‘90s. And it's the same thing.

The interesting thing though is that I had a beacon. My father who is the light of my life to this day, when I was nine years old, he stopped drinking. So, he's almost 30 years sober and he is wide open about me like telling his story because he loves to share his story and his triumph.

So, he's recovering alcoholic, his words. And when he stopped drinking, he started going to AA and he would take me with him and I was in fourth grade.

So, having this opportunity … and it's interesting because like I guess probably like six or seven years ago, I remember running into the mother of one of my classmates from back when I was a kid.

And actually no, I ran into the classmate and she was talking about how like she … and this is something she'd never mentioned before, but she was talking about how like she remembered seeing me at a meeting.

And how like we both, we had this like moment of solidarity where we were the children of parents who were open about their struggles with us. And that's a really hard thing to do.

I say this as a parent now, being open with your children about your hardships can be really difficult. And being the child of a parent who is open about their hardships can also, be very difficult because of this world we live in, where you know exactly what you're saying is true.

It's almost like humanity is seen as a sign of weakness, which it is. We are all human and very weak. If you compare us to the majority of other species in this world, we're not exactly the strongest, we're not the fastest, we're not the biggest.

The only thing that's given us an advantage is our ability to tell stories and to collaborate with each other.

So, I feel like the sooner we come to grips with the fact that there is not a single person on earth who isn't struggling with something and that it's okay for us to struggle, it's okay for us to go through hard things.

Like I think the sooner we get to a space where we can just talk about this stuff as a part of the human experience, the better off we'll be. Because the more people who are willing to be open about it, the more people who will feel less alone in their struggles with it.

Annmarie Kelly:

Absolutely. Those diagnoses that you're listing are absolutely alive and well in my family and extended family.

My favorite thing, and I’ve got a lot of favorite things, but one of the things I love, love, love about Chaos Theory is how honest and above board Shelbi is about her mental health needs.

Towards the beginning of the friendship, she gives Walter this brochure, I wrote it down, it's entitled, quote, “Bipolar 101, how to support a child or teen living with Bipolar Depression.”

How much would I have loved it if my mother had come to me and said, “You know what, these are some challenges that I deal with and I want you to know how you can help, what you can do.”

So, Shelbi presents Walter with this contract and says, quote, “The use of any and all mental illness slurs is strictly prohibited.”

I never had thought about how much those kinds of words would hurt someone who's struggling because we do. We we're like, “Oh, that person's so whacked, don't be so psycho.” We don't think about, you're throwing around, people are internalizing that. It's harmful and hurtful.

Another thing Shelbi asks is that — she does that in the third person, but like quote, “If Shelbi confirms that she's dealing with an episode, (which for her, again, she's bipolar) don't take any action that will exacerbate things.”

“This includes telling her to quote, ‘Cheer up,’ or quote, ‘Calm down or relax.’ If it were that simple, she wouldn't be having an episode.”

Oh my gosh. Beautiful, beautiful stuff. And I mean, where did this toolkit come from? How did you think of this Shelbi? It's great.

Nic Stone:

I mean, she's me in a lot of ways. Like I think mental health has been something that I've been thinking about for a long time. When you have a parent who is open about their struggles with addiction which is in substance abuse disorder is a quote, “mental illness.” It's a thing.

All of these things are just forms of neurodivergence. All it means is that your brain works a little differently than we're told they should work.

And the thing is, all of this is made up. This idea that there's some standard for how your brain is quote unquote, “supposed to work.” I find it all so ridiculous.

So, what I do with this book, it's really important for me to utilize the tools that I've been given. Like I have two therapists and a psychiatrist and I will say, but because I can afford it, I feel like I have a responsibility to share the things that I learn. So, I put them in books.

I think that if you are a person who is engaged with any sort of mental health counseling or therapy, if you're a person who has had access to medication, who has had access to psychiatry, if there are things that you have learned that have helped you, why not share them with other people?

So, with the brochure and with this friendship contract, she comes up with, a lot of that stuff is just stuff that I got from my therapist. It's stuff that I got from doing … so, I did EMDR. It's this very specific type of trauma therapy.

And the things that I learned going through that process are things that I can pass on. If I can make the world a little bit softer for people whose brains work in ways that the world tells them are wrong or are bad, that's what I'm going to do.

Because to be completely honest, there's nothing wrong with anybody. What's wrong is the way that we treat people as though there's something wrong with them.

Annmarie Kelly:

We talked with Dr. Ebony Butler a couple of months ago who talked specifically about mental health stigmas in black communities.

I teach in a predominantly black school. Many of my teen students have endured life altering trauma, and many of them have also, been in able or encouraged not to seek mental health care.

Either it's financially not available to them or in their family, it's kind of like it was in my family where, “That's for white people. You don't need that.”

And historically, I can think of many, many, many reasons why some black folks might not trust a medical field that's been predominantly all white men. We have a dark history in this country and in the medical profession of failing to serve black folks.

But what I find in your books, because these are characters of color, because we see them above board with whatever they're dealing with, in this case addiction, but certainly in the other ones, like those other capital letter issues.

Because you do that, it just breaks down that bias and makes it seem possible. And I see this starting to change. I would've said five years ago, zero of the kids in my classes were going to therapy. Or if they were, they would never talk of it.

And I'm just seeing this, kids will say, “Well, my therapist said,” or, “Dr. Ebony gave us these therapy cards, I bring them into school.” I am not a trained therapist, but we have therapy Monday where we all get our therapy cards out and we are talking and answering things about what we're vulnerable about. And it is beautiful.

The kids want to open up like that. You just need to give them permission. And your books, man, they give kids permission. I'm just so grateful for them.

Nic Stone:

Thank you. I mean, look, the therapy is contingent on just connection and validation. Like literally that's what therapy's all about. And you can connect with and validate people every day of your life. You can connect with and validate literally anyone you meet.

And I think about the other stuff I write about. I write a lot about racism and I think people completely … and it's not deliberate on the part of the oppressed, but for so long, when I look at the history of racism, and honestly when I look at the history of being black in this country.

Like being black is traumatic in and of itself just as a result of like what you have to deal with in a place where you are only here because your ancestors were brought over to work for free.

I have a really good friend who runs this nonprofit organization called We Need More Thinkers. And he says this thing, he's like, “My ancestors were enslaved. Everything I have to deal with is light work.” And I'm like, “Ooh, the bars that you drop with statements like that.”

But at the same time, because of this legacy, this history of slavery, if you think about it, in order to survive, I think about the things that my ancestors had to do to survive. And a lot of the time, what they had to do was pretend to be fine.

We had to act like we were okay, act like we were good, push harder, work harder than everyone else, make sure that we weren't slipping in any way. Make sure that we were giving people of other backgrounds, make sure we were giving white people nothing. We can't give them anything to hang over us. Like that kind of mentality was a part of survival.

But now, that we're moving into a space where we don't have to move like that anymore, we don't have to think like that anymore, this is when we get to unpack things and when we get to start truly living our fullest truth and being our fullest selves.

And going to therapy and being like, “Yes, I have major depressive disorder.” “Yes, I have generalized anxiety disorder.” “Yes, my brain is a little funky sometimes and I'm still here and I'm still thriving.” So? “I have major depressive disorder.” So?

I can continue to thrive, I can continue to move. Yes, there are dark nights of the soul when you're dealing with something like this, but it's like having gout, you know what I mean?

Annmarie Kelly:

Brain gout.

Nic Stone:

And these other things. You have brain gout, you have like brain arthritis. Like there's all of these other stuff that people have no problem working with and working through.

And we're contending with all kinds of stuff in our physical bodies without recognizing that like, “Hey, your brain is also, a thing that's in your physical body and sometimes it works in a way that you would prefer that it not work that way.” And that's okay. Do what you need to do to thrive.

Annmarie Kelly:

Well, one of my favorite lines from Chaos Theory is in Shelbi's point of view, but she's like, quote,
“Shelbi Camille Augustine is not okay.” Which is perfectly okay. It is okay to not be okay. It's normal. It is just part of the ups and downs that we navigate.

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Annmarie Kelly:

Okay. So, I was thinking about all the stuff I admire in your books. I love the capital letter, big issues that you weave in. I love this above board mental health conversation.

I also, just love the way you write relationships, crushes, meet cutes, flirting, fighting, requited, unrequited. It's just also, dreamy and I am here for it.

It makes me wonder a little about like high school you. I dated my way into these evangelical circles, you somehow ended up in Israel. But like what did it feel like to be 16 or 17 year old Nic Stone? Are you tapping into that time when you write these books?

Nic Stone:

Yeah. I mean, look, Odd One Out is a really good example of a book I wrote to validate a person I didn't feel like I had the liberty to be. So, one of the main characters, it's three protagonists in that book.

There's two cisgender girls, and a cisgender boy. One of the girls is openly gay, one is questioning, and then the boy is just like straight as a razor's edge. And has tested himself and tried to see if like maybe do I feel any sort of a tingle or anything if I'm looking at these naked men? Like he's done his due diligence when it comes to figuring out his orientation.

And of course, these things change. I think that this insistence on certainty and permanence that we have specifically in this country, it's so limiting. We limit ourselves so much by insisting that people never change. And by insisting that we be certain about things, neither of those things exist.

So, with Odd One Out though, Jupiter, one of the girls, the girl who is openly into girls, I wrote her because like she's who I would've been if I hadn't been closeted in high school.

And my high school experience was a wild one. Home life was interesting and school life was a completely different world. Like I was pretty popular.

My senior year I was captain of two different cheerleading squads. I was class president, I was the president of this club and this club. And I did this thing and I was this peer leader over here, et cetera, et cetera. And it all looked really shiny and fancy, et cetera, et cetera, on the outside.

But I also, just never fit anywhere. So, I was like that floater in the cafeteria where like one day I'm at the jock table, the next day I'm sitting with the nerds. The next day I'm over with like the girls who twirled their hair, the mean girl table.

And though I always felt this sense of displacement, what I've realized as I've gotten older is that I was collecting things that I needed in order to thrive in a world full of variety.

And it's wild that we're talking about this because one of my moderators … I'm currently in Naperville, Illinois, and I had a couple of school visits today. And when I do school visits these days, I have student moderators.

Like, “I'm not about to come in here and talk at y'all. Y'all come and tell me what you want to know.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Good for you. Yeah.

Nic Stone:

So, one of the moderators is a high school senior. And after the meeting, he kind of pulled me aside and sweetest, cutest kid. And I just see this like vulnerability kind of fall over his face.

And he said, “I need to ask you something and I didn't really know how to ask it publicly.” He's like, “Were you ever treated like you were weird like when you were a kid?”

“Like, I don't know, I just have this thing where like I don't really feel like … like in this group over here, I have to behave one way. In this group over here, I have to behave a different way. And people tell me I'm weird and I don't really know what to do with that.”

And I was like, “Baby, you better embrace that. Being weird gets me paid, first of all.” That's number one. Number two, what I tried to explain to this kid is that other people's small mindedness is not his issue.

If you have a group of friends here on the left who can only handle one part of you, cool. Give them that part. They're just missing out on everything else. You have this group over here who can only handle a different part, totally fine. Give them that other part.

We find our people eventually. And honestly, even if we don't find our people, what we gain in being able to move in different circles is this kind of like beautiful like worldliness that gives us — it has given me quite the edge. Like there's not a single person I can't have a conversation with.

I was on an airplane a couple of weeks ago and I sat down in my first class seat next to a man who looked very surprised that I was sitting down next to him in my first class seat. And we started having a conversation, his name was Brent.

Me and Brent started having this conversation and he just looked at me and he's like, “So, where are you headed?” And I said, “Well, we are on a flight to Sacramento, Brent. So, I'm headed to the same place you are.”

And he kind of chuckled and he asked me something else and I was like, “Oh yeah, I'm on a book tour.” Like I was flexing. Because like, Brent, you clearly don't think I'm supposed to be here beside you, bro, so we going to have a real conversation.

So, he starts asking me, he's like, “Oh, you write books?” I was like, “Yeah.” He's like, “So, is this your first book?” I was like, “No, it's my 12th.” And Brent was like, “Ah.” And he goes, “Who are you?”

We wound up having this long conversation. It turns out Brent is a conservative Christian white man from Louisville, Kentucky.

And when I told him the title of the book that had just come out, which was, How to Be a (Young) Antiracist, I did the Young Reader's adaptation of Ibram X. Kendi’s adult memoir that was just like wildly popular and honestly still is.

He kind of snorted for a second. Like he was like, “Huh.” He did like one of those like, “Huh, huh. Oh, anti-racist.” But as we kept talking, the flight attendant comes by asking what he wanted. He hadn't chosen a meal for the flight.

And she mentions this meat and cheese plate and he goes, “Is that like one of those charcuterie boards?” And she said, “Yeah, I guess it is kind of like a charcuterie board.” Like she kind of like shaded him a little bit.

And as she walked away, I went, “Hey, Brent, you want to hear something?” And he says, “Yeah, what?” I said, “My friends call it a shark coochie board.” And he lost it. And like that was it, that was all that was necessary to break down this barrier.

Because the next thing I know, he's telling me about his 21 year old daughter, she had graduated from … actually she's 24. So, she'd graduated from college and moved back in at the beginning of COVID.

And he was telling me about how like, “All of a sudden she came back from college and she looks at me and apparently now, I'm a racist, and I'm a bigot, and I'm a homophobic, and I'm all of these terrible things. And I just don't know why she speaks to me that way.”

And that little moment of him showing me his heart, we wound up having this really great conversation and connection. And then like I'm pretty sure he's going to read this book that he’s shaded.

All it takes is being able to talk to people. And I got that skill from never fitting and having to interact with so many people in high school. So, I'm writing myself in a lot of stuff and also, just writing all of the people I didn't get to be.

Annmarie Kelly:

Isn't it funny how something we think is a blind spot or something that was a weakness or something isolating like these boxes you didn't fit into, it actually is a superpower. That-

Nic Stone:

It is.

Annmarie Kelly:

… not sitting into those boxes means that you can reach across these made up barriers that people have and do this important work of building connection. You mentioned Dr. Kendi's book. How does it feel to have adopted that?

I've read How to Be an Antiracist, but I have not yet worked with students. I was thinking about it for a syllabus for next year. Like how are students responding to the work that you guys did? Because I know adults are hesitant.

But it's only because they're afraid of the word anti-racist or they're afraid of what Brent on the airplane was describing. Like they're afraid that this is going to tell them what's wrong with them.

And it does, but it also, tells them like what could be right. Like how you can better navigate these things. How are kids responding?

Nic Stone:

Oh, kids love it. I mean, look, adults are just afraid of other adults, which is dumb. Like we grown. We can have conversations, we can challenge each other, we can have dialogue just like kids do.

Kids actually talk about these things, which I love. And the response has been fantastic.

So, what I did with the book was I basically, I like chopped it into little pieces, completely rearranged it and it's broken down more by topic than it being this linear journey through his life, like the adult version is.

Frankly, it's the hardest thing I've ever done. And it was hard because I had to tell the truth at all times. I couldn't just kill the racist, I couldn't just take him out. Like in fiction, I can do what I want.

“Oh, you're being a jerk. I'm just going to have you get run over by a train in the next chapter, whatever.” But you can't do that with a non-fiction title.

So, I did my best to … it's really, I took what he did, I changed the language and changed the formatting a little bit so that it's easy to follow and kids can actually see themselves in the text. I mean, I obviously, recommend it, just saying.

Annmarie Kelly:

I read the first few chapters when I was preparing for this. And what I liked also, was Kendi writes a lot of times from a first person narrative. “I gave this speech.” Obviously, you're not him. And so, you made the decision to flip it to a second person, like a you. And I felt that that was really warm.

I was picturing my students responding to the idea that this is also, their story, that they are going to find themselves in there. Which again, is what you do so well in fiction.

And I was thinking about the utility of non-fiction where you invite students into share not racism, the noun, but racism, the adjective.

And just sitting there with the notion there that racist, the noun versus racist, the adjective, that we're talking about choices, choices we make every day. That, “Oh, that was actually a pretty racist choice to teach only Huckleberry Finn and Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men.”

“Because oh, look at that. You can see that was a racist choice. I've only given you black characters who aren't in their power, that are only victims.”

We can see this is choices. And then the students don't feel like they're not like stuck in that identity. It's just that thing that we have all made racist choices.

And when I was a new teacher, I taught Of Mice and Men, I'll never do that again. It's certainly not as a standalone text. There's no, “No, there, there,” for women, for black folks, for anyone.

But when you name the racist choice again, it doesn't make you weaker. It actually makes you stronger because you can see it better.

Nic Stone:

Can see it, and you can get rid of it. That's the thing. Like when we hide ourselves from these things that are just real and they're just kind of a part of the fabric of this society. When we pretend like they aren't there, that's when we're giving our power away.

It's coming to realize that like, “Oh wait, I can decide to do something different.” Like I'm very pro eliminating racist as a noun, period. I just don't think the word racist should be a noun. There's no such thing as a racist. Like there's not a single person for whom that is their soul identity marker.

Like I can think of people that I even now, would be like, “Ooh, but mmm.” Well, however, if I'm going to go with my own teachings and I'm going to like lean into the book that I wrote, it's important for me to recognize that like there's not a single person on earth who should be identified solely based on one characteristic.

And the whole goal of anti-racism is viewing every single identity marker as equal in their differences. There's nothing superior or nothing inferior. They're all just equal across the board and of equal value.

And when you think about it like that, it just makes sense to me. Like it makes sense to me that like, oh, black and white are equal. Neither is inferior, neither is superior, just equal.

Men and women, equal. Neither's inferior, neither is superior. It's getting rid of the hierarchy that's at the core of the concept of anti-racism.

And so, I'm like, “I get behind it a hundred percent.” And I think our buddy, Brent, he probably is going to as well, hopefully. With his shark coochie board.

Annmarie Kelly:

With his shark coochie board. Because it turns out all of those false binaries were often just stories we were telling ourselves, stories we made up somewhere. If we made them up, we could unmake them up.

Nic Stone:

We can unmake them, yes. And they were stories made by people in positions of power to hold on to those positions of power.

But there's also, power in numbers. And I think that that's where the difference is to me. The civil rights movement happened and things changed because of the massive amount of people who got on board.

So, just having people who agree with what you're saying in enough numbers to get other people on board, really all we're doing is shifting narratives. We're changing narratives, we're shifting away from a narrative that is all about this notion of exceptionalism and honor and virtue, et cetera.

Like yes, okay, it's cool to be American. Don't get me wrong. I love being a citizen of this country. I love that this is where I grew up. And I say this having lived in other countries. And this idea that American means like white, and hardworking, and virtuous. That's got to go.

And also, what needs to go is the idea that America was founded on these really noble ideals. It was not. It was founded on genocide, it was founded on enslavement, it was founded on greed. And we can get okay with that. Like we can see that, call it out, and decide to move differently.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. Does not make us weaker. It actually does make us stronger.

Nic Stone:

Makes us stronger.

Annmarie Kelly:

Kwame Alexander and I talked about that, that America can be both a city on a hill and a dumpster fire. It can be both aspirational for liberty for all and a country that has broken its promises.

When you look at both of those things, we can do better. If you gaslight, including with what you teach kids, first off, they're on to you. And second, it does not help them, it doesn't serve anyone to create a country that we can be more proud of.

I could talk to you about this all day. This is so in my wheelhouse, but I want to make sure you get to eat DoorDash and be with your son.

So, we always close with just a few like fan favorites. Some quick questions to get to know the writer behind the book. These are just multiple choice. Just pick one. Okay?

Nic Stone:

I can dig it.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright. Coffee or tea?

Nic Stone:

Coffee.

Annmarie Kelly:

Mountains or beach?

Nic Stone:

Beach.

Annmarie Kelly:

Dogs or cats?

Nic Stone:

Dogs.

Annmarie Kelly:

Love or basketball?

Nic Stone:

Love.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright. So, got some ‘90s trivia for you. ‘90s trivia. Which do you prefer? The video game, Mortal Combat or the film, The Sandlot?

Nic Stone:

Oh my God. Why would you do this to me?

Annmarie Kelly:

I know, it's mean.

Nic Stone:

Golly. You just finished me with this question. I'll go with The Sandlot. Only because Moral Combat had a lot of misogyny.

Annmarie Kelly:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Little bit, little bit.

Nic Stone:

In those costumes.

Annmarie Kelly:

Big busted women in teeny tiny … yeah.

Nic Stone:

Because you can fight like that. Incorrect.

Annmarie Kelly:

I always fight in heels, don't you?

Nic Stone:

With my boobs hanging out. Right, exactly.

Annmarie Kelly:

This is some book trivia. Which would you recommend more? The Virgin Suicides by Jeffrey Eugenides or Divergent by Veronica Roth?

Nic Stone:

Hmm. Frankly, it would depend on the reader. But I'll lean into The Virgin Suicides just because that was like a transformational. Both of them were transformational texts for me, but that one was the one that made me feel like it was okay for me to be a teenager with cares that adults didn't seem to care about.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, yeah. Are you the kind of person who likes to watch sports or play sports?

Nic Stone:

Play. I'd prefer to play than to watch.

Annmarie Kelly:

What's a sport you play?

Nic Stone:

I mean, lately it's tumbling and-

Annmarie Kelly:

Tumbling. Like round off back handspring tumbling?

Nic Stone:

Oh yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Girlfriend, we're getting older-

Nic Stone:

We’re getting a trampoline and it is on-

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh my God. Watch out for your hips, and ankles, and-

Nic Stone:

Oh nah. My hips are solid. I am getting older and better. Okay. We are only getting better with age. I will flip until I cannot flip anymore. I did tear my plantar fasciitis last year doing a back flips. But it's fine now. It's healed.

Annmarie Kelly:

We're going to have to talk afterwards about how you got rid of your-

Nic Stone:

Take my collagen. We've taking our collagen. Take your collagen.

Annmarie Kelly:

Mikki Kendall said the same thing and I forgot about it till right now. She said that was real. I said it was made up, but she said, “Mm-mm (negative). It’s real.”

Nic Stone:

It's legit.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright. Okay. Are you an early birder a night owl?

Nic Stone:

I'm a middle of the day person.

Annmarie Kelly:

We need a name for that. A daytime gator. We'll work on — we'll workshop it.

Nic Stone:

We should, yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Are you a risk taker or the person who always knows where the band-aids are?

Nic Stone:

Both because I'm a risk taker, I know where the band-aids are.

Annmarie Kelly:

Very good. Alright. This is fill in the blank. If I wasn't working as a writer, I might be a …

Nic Stone:

Neuropsychologist.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, I could see that. You're wicked smart.

Nic Stone:

Thanks.

Annmarie Kelly:

What is something quirky that folks don't always know about you? It could be a like, a love, a guilty pleasure, a pet peeve.

Nic Stone:

I was my high school mascot. It was this big, bulky blue devil. A total dude. I've almost gotten my kicked I cannot tell you how many times because they did not realize it was a girl in the costume. Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Was it super hot? Was that in Georgia?

Nic Stone:

Oh, it was so gross.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh, the sweat. Oh my God.

Nic Stone:

It was disgusting. Like it was gross. Absolutely gross. But I had a blast.

Annmarie Kelly:

What do you love about where you live?

Nic Stone:

Everything. It's Atlanta. It's gay. It's like the blackest gayest city in America. Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Two left. Favorite ice cream?

Nic Stone:

Oh God. It's so bougie. It's pineapple upside down cake. The company is Jeni's. It's like $12 a pint. Sorry.

Annmarie Kelly:

I live in Ohio.

Nic Stone:

Oh. You know Jeni's.

Annmarie Kelly:

I know where Jeni's is and I could tell you about their goat cheese pair.

Nic Stone:

The goat cheese red cherry.

Annmarie Kelly:

I could tell you they have three different mints. They've got the butter mint around Easter. They got the peppermint around Christmas. Don't even get me started. You're right.

Nic Stone:

I love it. You love bougie ice cream too.

Annmarie Kelly:

It's so expensive and-

Nic Stone:

And worth every penny.

Annmarie Kelly:

… it’s embarrassing. Alright. Last one. If we were to take a picture of you really happy and doing something you love, what would we see?

Nic Stone:

I'd be with my kids, probably like jumping off of something we're not supposed to jump off of.

Annmarie Kelly:

Parkour.

Nic Stone:

Like a cliff or something into some — hopefully, there's water beneath us.

Annmarie Kelly:

Hopefully, hopefully. I love it.

Hey, Nic Stone. Thank you for making time. I know we caught you literally in the middle of a book tour with your son and I'm grateful you were able to be here today.

Nic Stone:

Yeah. Now, I got to go pull him out of the bathroom where he's watching Sonic soft toy videos on YouTube and learning things. And I'm like, “What is this boy color, girl color thing?” “Oh, he was watching a Sonic video.” “Okay. We're going to have to stop watching those. That's false information.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Some unlearning to do.

Nic Stone:

So much, much.

Annmarie Kelly:

You've been quoted as saying, quote, “Every room you step into shifts the moment you enter it.”

Nic Stone:

Correct.

Annmarie Kelly:

Thank you for entering our room today, and blessing us with the awesomeness of you.

Nic Stone:

Thank you. I appreciate that. It's been a blast.

Annmarie Kelly:

Absolutely.

Folks, Nic Stone's latest book, I'm holding it up as so you can see, it is Chaos Theory. You can find it and seriously a dozen others wherever books are sold. And I mean, like we didn't talk about Dear Martin, Dear Justyce, or Blackout, we have so much more we can talk to Nic about.

To everyone listening, you will not be disappointed. Pick up these books and we're wishing you love and light wherever the day takes you.

Be good to yourself, be good to one another, and we'll see you again soon on this wild and precious journey.

Wild Precious Life is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Special thanks to executive producers Gerardo Orlando and Michael DeAloia; producer, Sarah Willgrube; and audio engineer, Ian Douglas.

Be sure to subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.