Much Ado About Nada with Uzma Jalaluddin

Annmarie Kelly:

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In December, 2020, the New York Times released an article entitled “Just How White Is The Publishing Industry.” I'll link to it in our show notes, but the gist was this.

White people account for only 60% of the United States population, but in any given year, they published overwhelmingly like the most books of anyone. We're talking 89 and 90% of them.

Like many of you, I spent a lot of time at home in 2020 and I remember reading this article and then turning around to see how my own bookshelves stacked up.

Sure, like any good English major, I had Toni Morrison gracing my shelves, and James Baldwin, and Jhumpa Lahiri. But despite my progressive politics and assumptions about myself as a widely and wisely read individual, I was also, embarrassed to be part of the statistics.

Looking at my shelves, I realized that the vast majority of the titles in my office had been written by white folks.

Many of them were some of my favorite formative texts. I came of age reading Louisa May Alcott Little Women, and Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret by Judy Blume. I first learned about the power of writing workshops from Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird.

But if I'm going to talk about the need for diverse voices in publishing, if I'm going to vote for politicians who champion free speech, and school boards who encourage students to read widely, then I also, need to cultivate more diversity in my own reading habits.

So, I've been working on it. I added writing craft books by Peter Ho Davies and Matthew Salesses. I read young adult literature with Nick Stone and Nicola Yoon, and I've fallen in love with Muslim retellings of classic tales by today's guest, Uzma Jalaluddin.

If you are a reader, I encourage you to take a look at your own shelves. Whose stories are missing? Bipoc writers, queer writers. If you're in a book club, do the same.

We're fortunate to be alive during a time when the publishing industry is beginning to correct some of its past oversights. And let's be honest, it's racism. Let's read to learn the multitudes contained in one another's stories.

With that, let me tell you about today's guest. Uzma Jalaluddin grew up in a suburb of Toronto, but her favorite place in the world is the nearest bookstore or library.

She's the author of Much Ado About Nada, a second chance romance, inspired by Jane Austen's Persuasion. And the upcoming Three Holidays and a Wedding, a multi-faith holiday romcom co-written with Marissa Stapley.

Uzma’s debut novel, Ayesha at Last, was a Good Reads Choice Award finalist, Cosmopolitan UK book of the year, and Publishers Weekly best book of 2019.

Her second novel, Hana Khan Carries On was an instant Canadian bestseller and named the Best Romance Novel by the Washington Post. It's currently in development for film by Amazon Studios and Mindy Kaling.

Uzma is a former contributor to the Toronto Star and has written for The Atlantic. She lives near Toronto, Canada with her husband and two sons, where she also teaches high school.

Uzma Jalaluddin, welcome to Wild Precious Life.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Thank you so much for having me, Annmarie.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, before the pandemic, I 100% fell in love with your first book, Ayesha at Last, a modern take on Pride and Prejudice. That story of Ayesha and Khalid, and their Darcy and Elizabeth Bennet was so much fun and-

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh, thank you.

Annmarie Kelly:

… you recasting it in a tight-knit Muslim community in Toronto really, really worked. And since then, I know you've written two more books, including this most recent one, Much Ado About Nada. Great title by the way.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Thank you, thank you.

Annmarie Kelly:

I cannot wait to dig in and like just talk all things romcoms. But first, for the couple of listeners who maybe haven't had the absolute delight of discovering your novels, would you just go ahead and tell us your story?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Sure, I'd be happy to. Oh God. Tell you my story. Okay. So, I live in Toronto. I'm the daughter of immigrants from India. I'm married. I have two teenage boys, God help me.

Like a lot of writers, I have a day job. I'm actually a high school teacher. I teach English and I've been doing that for a really, really long time and I really enjoy it. And I'm a writer.

So, as you said, my very first novel came out in 2019 in the States, Ayesha at Last, a retelling of Pride and Prejudice. And my second novel is Hana Khan Carries On. And my third novel, which is about to come out June 13th is Much Ado About Nada.

I have a fourth novel that I co-wrote that will be out in September, and it's a multi-faith holiday romcom called Three Holidays and a Wedding.

And 2023, is a bit of a banner year for me. I also, wrote my very first play which debuted in Montreal, and it's called The Rishta. And it's a really funny family comedy that kind of makes fun of the arranged marriage trope.

What else can I say? I don't have any hobbies. All I do is read and write. I don't have much of a life. I always say I'm a very boring person.

I have a very large South Asian family in Toronto, so we spend a lot of time together, kind of just hanging out. And I probably watch too much tv, so I'm always watching something.

Lately, my husband and I have been basically binging the third season of Ted Lasso. Don't tell him what happens because we're not done yet.

Annmarie Kelly:

Don’t tell me. I haven't watched last one. Don't speak of it. You'll never talk of it.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

But I love it.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm actually, oh, I'm afraid to watch it because I don't want it to be over.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I know.

Annmarie Kelly:

I love it so much.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

It’s such a shot of sunshine. It really is. It's such a feel good show. And keeping in that vein, the other show that I'm watching is the second season of Abbott Elementary, which I'm really enjoying.

Annmarie Kelly:

So good.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

So good. Both of those shows are just so good. So, I really have a soft spot for that.

Which I guess is reflected in the kind of books that I write. Books that have an interesting plot but are eternally optimistic, which I think is essentially every romance novel because you know what's going to happen at the end.

I have a bit of a optimism, which I guess is a good thing to have as a teacher. Like you want to be optimistic about the future.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, yeah. I read your books and when you said that phrase a jolt of sunshine, I was thinking, “Oh, that's exactly what she does.” Because okay, maybe we know what will happen in the end, but we also, you make us doubt that we're ever going to get there.

And we're just like, “Well, no, that's not …” You put up so many obstacles, and so, even though I think I know how it's going to end, you have me doubting all along the way.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Well, I mean, as a writer, you got to make your characters work for it. They got themselves into a pickle and they have to try things to get themselves out of that mess they've created.

Annmarie Kelly:

Absolutely. So, your novels do traverse a lot of ground. I mean, they deal with like big issues, like intersectional identity and the confluence of like where does culture end and religion begin, and how can those two things exist? That search for belonging, and of course, love. Were you always romantic?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I grew up being raised on a steady diet of Bollywood movies and they're all romantic comedies essentially, or they're romantic dramas, but there's definitely love in them. Love that goes sideways and love that triumphs overall all.

And then of course as an English teacher, like I always read the Shakespearean comedies and they always end in weddings, or the tragedies which end in beheadings. Either way, there's some kind of romance angle.

Annmarie Kelly:

I love that at the end of the most recent little women, the editor tells the Jo March character, “It can either end in a wedding or death. Those are the only two choices for a female heroine.”

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I know, that was so funny. I love that movie. That reimagining was fantastic.

No, I think essentially, the joyful ending in a romance novel … I also, grew up in the ‘90s, so like the classic romcom era, and I watched all of those movies and I think like the media you consume when you're young, it really stays with you for the rest of your life.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. I mean, I think it was Edith Wharton who said something about everything significant a writer has to learn happens before the age of like 16.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh God, that's so depressing. I hope that's not true.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh my gosh.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Come on, Edith.

Annmarie Kelly:

I was just cleaning out my parents' house. My mother has sold it and moved to an apartment and I have been unearthing artifacts of my own growing up in the ‘90s years.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh, nice.

Annmarie Kelly:

Including just like notes folded into footballs shapes that I open up hoping to like have a glimpse of my young wisdom. And just again and again, I can't even believe how ridiculous I'm obsessed with different …

The whole side is like scrawled with like, “I love this guy. I love that guy.” Like they're different boys sometimes along the sides. I have nothing of any significance to say.

So, I very much hope that Edith Wharton was not right about that, otherwise I'm in trouble.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah, I think the texting culture, which has replaced the notes, they don't know what they're missing. Finding like all of those funny diary entries and letters and like little messages that you sent to your friends.

I know I have a whole stack of them. They're really fun, but they're very embarrassing, so maybe they're not missing much.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, super much. Okay, so, your new book, Much Ado About Nada is about Nada Syed, a nearly 30 year old engineer who's still single, still living at home, and in a bit of a slump because she's had a failed business venture that I won't get into except to say that one guy's a jerk.

As the book opens, we meet Nada and her best friend who are attending like a large Muslim conference where they run into Baz, the one guy, the one person Nada hopes never to see again.

I've heard this advertised as a modern Muslim spin on Jane Austen's Persuasion and that absolutely I see. And you even referenced it in the book. I see that, but it also, has a title that calls back to Shakespeare, right? A comedy.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yes.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, which is it here?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Okay. There's a story here. I'm going to tell you the story. This is a story about the way that books will evolve over the course of your revisions.

So, oftentimes I start writing books without kind of having a title, just sort of knowing that I want to write about certain themes.

And believe it or not, one of the major themes that I wanted to tackle in this book was the idea of female ambition and the way that ambition oftentimes, especially for women who come from marginalized backgrounds, they face so many extra challenges when they're running after their dreams and their ideals and things like that.

That was where I started. I ended up writing a romcom as usual, but that was kind of the base of it and I think it kind of filters in through that.

But after I came up with that thematic question, I really wanted to write a mashup of Jane Austen's Persuasion meets Much Ado About Nothing by Shakespeare, because I'm a big Austen and a big Shakespeare nerd.

And I wrote that in mind, like it was I actually named Baz as kind of an homage to Benedict. And Nada had another name in the beginning, I couldn't really find like a good Muslim B name for a woman, but it was fine.

And then as the book evolved, I finished my entire first draft, I sent it to my editor, she liked it, and then I just realized that the second half of the book didn't work. It just didn't work because I was trying too hard to make this book into something that it didn't want to be.

And I spent last summer ripping it all apart, almost doing like a first page rewrite, but definitely a middle of the book rewrite.

And I took out like at the end of Much Ado About Nothing, so the original Shakespearean, there's like this wedding scene and there's like this kind of bridal switcheroo where … I don't know.

Anyways, most people don’t know about this. It gets very niche. And I had that kind of gender flipped. It was complicated, but it just didn't work. I could feel it in my bones. There's like this writerly instinct that kind of kicks in when you're deep in the guts of a book and it just didn't work. And I had to erase it.

I had to take it all out and let the book be what it wanted to be. It wanted to be Persuasion. It didn't want to be Much Ado About Nothing.

But the main character's name was at that point, Nada. And my husband was like, “You know what? You should name the book Much Ado About Nada, because nada of course is slang for nothing. And it's funny.” And I can't resist a good pun. So, the title is Much Ado About Nada, but it's Persuasion.

Annmarie Kelly:

It's a great title. And that's such a fabulous story. You must have been like pulling your hair out though-

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yes, yes.

Annmarie Kelly:

I mean, I think it was Barbara Kingsolver, one of her very early books, when someone talks about the — we always talk about the heart as being like the center of where love is. And someone makes the comment like, “No, no, no, it should be the liver. Because when you try to sow off a liver, it just like falls apart in your hands.”

And I think about what you're describing, like the heart of your book, like that in the beginning it might have felt like a trying to sow a liver and it's coming apart in your hands.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah, yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm impressed that you like steadfastly carried through with that.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I could have either left it and it was fine. The book would would've been great. It worked, but it felt wrong. And I don't know how else to put it. It's just like this deep writerly instinct kicked in and I was like, “No, this doesn't work and I know it doesn't work, and if I don't fix it now, I'm going to hate myself.”

And so, I made way too much work for myself, I'm pretty sure my hair went gray and I rewrote the book in a month. And you know what? I'm really glad I did. I think it's stronger for it, even if it doesn't have … I'll get to Shakespeare later. This one's going to be Austen, but.

Annmarie Kelly:

Well, we're going to hold you to that. That's excellent. I mean, books do have a mind of their own. I once tried to write a story where I got like these two people together, but the guy kept falling for the best friend, and that was not what I was trying to do.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah, yeah. Actually the same thing happened with Nada too. I got to 30,000 words, which is almost a hundred pages, and I realized that I had been writing about the wrong protagonist. Like the love interest was wrong.

So, originally if you know the Zayn character, he was the love interest. And I was like, “No, no, no, no, it's not Zayn, it's Baz. Baz is the love interest.” So, I had to rewrite it as well.

But you know what, this is all part of the writing process. It's like you kind of go in with a really clear idea, and then life happens, writerly instinct kicks in and the story wants to be what it wants to be. Asterisk.

Annmarie Kelly:

Zayn does have sort of a smolder. I mean, when they're throwing-

Uzma Jalaluddin:

He does.

Annmarie Kelly:

… the hijabs at his feet. I mean, I wouldn't mind a little more Zayn, but no, I mean, Baz is so aw. You have to read this book, you guys.

So, another of my favorite features of your novels is the way you write intergenerational and extended families.

Your stories are chock full of well-intentioned parents, and nosy aunties, and spoiled cousins, and busy body neighbors, and enthusiastic Imams who convince young people to join planning committees or conferences.

You rate these entire communities and this lends a truly realistic texture to your stories. But how the heck do you keep track of all these people?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

This is a function of being the eldest daughter of a large immigrant family and being part of a pretty tight-knit community. Growing up I was surrounded by all of my parents’ friends and family, and we would go to the mosque and see like more friends and family.

And it's just the way I grew up. Like I lived for a long time with extended family, like at various points in my childhood.

And so, I'm just reflecting on the reality of not just my own life, but I think so many people who come from these immigrant families where just surrounded by a community.

And community is really important because especially in the beginning, I know when my parents moved here, they didn't have a lot of family. They came later. And so, their community was their family. The community was the people they celebrated their tribes with and they mourned their losses with.

Annmarie Kelly:

Wow. What must that have been like to come? Was it your dad's work moving them? Was your mom kind of along for the ride? And how horrified was she by that snow and the lack of all these other people? Like what's their story of having come?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Well, my dad, like a lot of immigrants, came for school. So, he actually first landed in the States. He did his masters in Texas when he first arrived. And then eventually, he finished his master's. He's a biochemist. None of the chemistry abilities rubbed off on me at all. I'm an English teacher.

But when he was finished his degree, he basically was like, “Okay, well, what's the fastest way to get immigration?” And his friend had moved to Toronto and said, “Listen, Canada is looking for people and you can apply for a job here and try to get immigration.” And that's what he did.

And so, he moved to Toronto. And essentially, my dad went back to India. My mom and dad got married and he sponsored her for immigration. And 1974 is when … 1974, 1976, something like that, is when my mom came.

Actually, she said that the first few years in Canada, which were very quiet, I think was a nice change for her because in India she was just surrounded by so much family, and drama, and aunts, and uncles, and cousins.

And when she came here for a couple of years, she said it was just very peaceful and she really enjoyed it. But the winters were brutal, especially back then in the ‘70s, Toronto winters were pretty bad.

Annmarie Kelly:

Sure. There was some sort of crazy storm when my sister was like, I want to say like 1976, there was a big storm here in Cleveland. And they told stories about her going out in her snow suit and just like sinking. Like it was above her head, like drowning in snow. Yeah.

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Annmarie Kelly:

So, amid all these characters that echo your own family, it sounds like, as someone who's read all of your novels, I love the Easter eggs and like the callbacks when Nada and Haleema are just hanging out in their hotel room and they're like thinking of ordering from the quote “Halal” burger place, I'm just like, “That's Ayden's restaurant.”

And then when Nada meets the wedding planner and the wrestler life coach, I am just like laughing my face off thinking back to Ayesha at Last quote, “What's your favorite color and why is it pink?” I was going to ask you that.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh God, she's so funny.

Annmarie Kelly:

How do you decide like which characters are going to just like come skittering back or is that where they take over too?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah, they completely take over. They just kind of show up and they're like, “Okay, so this is my scene. Just sit down, Uzma, I'm going to take this over.” Writing them is just such a joy though.

Like when Massou and Hafsa were back, I was like, “Okay, I want to do a matchmaking event at this conference. Who else is going to run it? It's got to be Hafsa, it's got to be Massou. I have to bring them back. It was very fun.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh, I was so happy to see them, those two. Oh my gosh. So, something else that I mean, speaking of wedding planners, like all three of your main characters are contending with this pressure to get married.

I mean, I've seen this in my own family. My maternal grandmother was like practically considered a spinster when she waited until her late 20s to get married. I mean, you write these charming, Muslim romcoms. The focus on marriage totally works.

But I wonder do you still see this like alive in your community, like with arranged marriages and Rishta proposals? Is this like something that we're hearkening back to in the past? Or do you still see this alive in your extended community today?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

You know what, I think the search for a partner or the search for … like in the Muslim community, especially the people who are kind of like observant and practicing, they're definitely thinking about marriage.

But just in any community, like the search for a partner is I think something that is so relatable and it takes over so many people's lives. Like think about the success of like online dating. Everyone's like on all the apps trying to find a date, or a partner, or even just someone to hook up with.

And I always ask my younger cousins this, because I've been married for a really long time. I've been married so long, like online dating wasn't even really a thing when I got married.

Annmarie Kelly:

I know. We missed all the fun.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Way too long. We missed all the fun. I don't know. I think it's pretty brutal out there from what I hear from my friends who are single. And my younger cousins and nieces and nephews who are in their 20s, they tell me that, yeah, there's still a lot of pressure to get married and to settle down.

My cousin got married a few years ago, and she said that she felt it. Like she got married when she was 25, which is incredibly young, but she was like, “No, no, no.”

A lot of it yes, it was her parents, but it was also, very much internalized kind of pressure from the South Asian community that she grew up in Toronto.

And now, as someone who, like I'm the mother of teenage boys, and I just keep thinking, I just want my kids to feel free to get married and to settle and pair whenever they want. I don't think I'm going to put the same kind of pressure on them.

But I think this is a function of like a lot of young people who maybe are the children of immigrants, so it's kind of a leftover of the expectations that their parents had from their own countries. And that being said, the expectations in like India and Pakistan have probably also changed as well.

But the search for a life partner, I think is one of the most important decisions that you will make in your life because it determines so much of how the rest of your life will go.

Not to say that the person that you either marry or spend some time with, if it's not a permanent situation, has to be kind of lead to a life sentence unless you want it to. But I think it does determine how a lot of your life kind of unravels.

A lot of our most dramatic stories are revolve in some way about around our families or our love lives.

Annmarie Kelly:

Sure. I really am just sort of in love with the way that these classic retellings really do just align really well with the Muslim community, where you put them.

I think another thing the characters in your books, (I mind to say all three, but I have to think about it) the perception of their Muslim identity. I'm thinking of Khalid in Ayesha, he chooses to dress in conservative robes.

And even Ayden, and Hannah, and Hannah's cousin, they encounter that really nasty guy who's like, “Go back to your own country,” when they're outside of that ballgame.

And I mean, Nada has that quote, let me find it. Oh, she's just talking about the internet, like the memes. I want to say, this is back probably to when she was in the conference, and she's like, “The memes are really cruel, but that's the internet. Everyone has to be mean because they're all lonely and sad.”

So, there's this theme though about like pushback that they're getting just for being themselves.

And I'm thinking about your books. These are beautiful retellings of these classic old stories. But have you yourself experienced any pushback from people either in person or online for your worship choices or the way that you've taken these stories, these classic white people stories and made them your own? Have you experienced any of that pushback?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

So, the pushback has been kind of interesting. I would say, because I feel like I'm one of the few people who are writing these stories, sometimes the pushback will be very subtle.

So, it'll be a more of a, “I'm not sure if this book is really for me. I'm not sure if I'll really be able to relate to this book.” Just because most of the characters in my novels are brown, they’re South Asian, they’re children of immigrants, or they're Muslim.

So, I think, I feel like I deal with that on a really subtle level where people just won't pick up the book if they see like a person in hijab on the cover.

Whereas I grew up reading all sorts of books that were completely outside of my experience. I'm not a white woman, I'm not a black man, I'm not a indigenous person. Like I love to read stories based in other cultures personally.

But a lot of times, because many people have grown up not expecting to be the center of the narrative, oftentimes they're a little bit hesitant. That being said, I also, have a lot of like really supportive and kind fans who email me and say really nice things.

And they're not Muslim and they're not brown, maybe they're some other ethnicity, but they found something that's relatable. Whether it's the family dynamic or they enjoyed the humor, or they thought it was really romantic. Or maybe they're not Muslim, but they're of another faith. And they thought it was really interesting the way that I tackled faith.

So, it's a little bit of both. And sometimes I feel I get a little bit of pushback from my own community. And what happens is that there's an immediate, I feel like this … I get like this too, because you'd never see yourself self-represented, when someone tries to tell a story steeped in your community, you're immediately get your backup because you want to make sure that they did a good job.

You want to make sure that they're not stereotypical stories, or they're tropy stories, or they're stories where the main characters engaged in a lot of self-hatred, like a lot of internalized what we call the colonization of the mind, like the internalized self-hatred of being a Muslim.

Like, “Oh, well, I was Muslim, but then it made me unhappy. And so, now, I've forsaken my faith and now I'm free. Free of the oppression of all of that.”

Which honestly is some people's genuine story, but those are most often the stories that have been told about Muslim characters, which gets tiring and boring after a while. So, I think some Muslim readers kind of approach me warily unless they've read my books.

And so, I kind of I got to win everyone over. Sometimes it's exhausting.

Annmarie Kelly:

That sounds exhausting.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

It is. It can be. Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm thinking about that notion that you have to somehow like write a character that pleases everyone. I mean, for instance, take Hafsa, she's one of my favorite, like ridiculous characters.

So, if I'm like within your community, I'm like, “Oh, why did you write Hafsa to be spoiled? Girls who have Rishtas aren't spoiled.” Like if I wanted to take a critique, but they're missing out on like the gorgeous essence of that character and that we want them to contain these multitudes.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yes.

Annmarie Kelly:

That's really interesting.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Exactly. Yes. I kind of enjoy writing my ridiculous, complicated, annoying characters. They're fun because I don't think that all the Muslims need to be perfect and all the like non-Muslim … I'm not writing propaganda, I'm just writing real life.

I think all of my female characters are quite complicated and nuanced. And sometimes, like even in Hana Khan Carries On, she didn't make all the right choices. She behaved badly for parts of the book, and I would say-

Annmarie Kelly:

So badly.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah. And same with Nada. Like she did, she was a brat. She was unfair in certain moments because they're human beings. They're not like caricatures of like the perfect Muslim woman.

Annmarie Kelly:

Well, and I'm also, thinking about the way (this is in your previous book) Hana Khan Carries On, when she's working in the radio station, and they say, “Okay, you can do a story.” And the stories that they want her to do are like either about terrorists or henna tattoos, or they're just like these …

So, when you speak about like the stereotypes, she's like, “Maybe I don't want to do that. There are other stories we can tell.”

But you're right that if there's not a big enough choice out there, then folks are going to try to hold you to this ridiculous standard. That's frustrating.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah. I mean, any type of, even on TV shows, if you have a brown character, like an overtly South Asian character, at some point they're going to break out into a Bollywood dance. Like it is just the law of TV. Always badly choreographed, by the way.

Annmarie Kelly:

Something else you do really well is that you write people of all ages, you write big families, you write people of different religions and faiths and also, different functioning bodies. I mean, Hana Khan's father is struggling with the aftermath of a difficult accident.

In this book, Nada's brother is he's had to start using a motorized wheelchair when he's 14 years old.

And something I love in both of these examples is just like you said, like the side characters could take over the novel with their larger narratives.

These are just part of the story that we don't actually have like chapters and chapters and chapters and chapters about how difficult it is to sit in a wheelchair. We simply have the reality that someone's body is behaving differently, and thus they sit in a chair.

And then we see him trying to date, we see him getting a job, we see him sneaking around. So, I love the way that bodies are just alive in all shapes and sizes in your books.

I know that you're known for being someone who's representative of the Muslim community, but I also, like the way that you represent different bodies. That's really gorgeous.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Thank you for saying that. I really tried, it was important for me. I have very close family who are differently abled and I've watched their struggle all my life.

And it was important for me to talk about how someone within my community, which is oftentimes when we talk about Muslims or we talk about South Asians, it's such an emphasis on race and religion and culture.

But we also, have the same problems that mainstream society has, where we have differently able bodies, we have neurodivergent people. And I wanted to show that representation within this diverse communities.

Like I always say this, I always want to write about the diversity within diverse communities, and that includes the different bodies that we have.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, I love that. The diversity within the diverse community is the fact that maybe the parents expect children to be doctors and engineers, but here's this one running around being a poet or dropping out of college. That we seeing people with differently abled bodies was a breath of fresh air in your books.

I also, have to give a shout out to, would you say Bisma or Bisma?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Bisma.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, Bisma. I love the conversation that she and Nada have when they're just talking about love and marriage. And Bisma says something like, “You know how they say that when you do something you love, you never work a day in your life?” Nada's like, “Ugh, not this bullshit.”

That's what she's saying to herself. And this is like, well, it's not like that at all. I'm tired all the time. Sometimes I fantasize about packing a suitcase and running away, and I felt so heard and seen by Bisma. I'm like, “Exactly.”

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah. She might have been kind of echoing something that I felt on many occasions in my life as a very tired mom, a very tired teacher and writer.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh my gosh. I think I told my husband once, he's like, “What do you want to do for Mother's Day?” I'm like, “I want to leave you all, I want to go to a hotel, I want to sleep in, and I want you to leave me alone.”

And he thought that was so mean. But I'm like, “Are you kidding me? I have just described every mother's dream.”

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh my God, my dream is for everyone to just leave the house and let me have the house to myself for a few hours. But I think I like the hotel idea better, because then when you stay at home, you just think about laundry.

Annmarie Kelly:

No laundry, exactly.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah. It never ends. It never ends.

Annmarie Kelly:

Well, so you said 2023 is a banner year. So, this second novel coming out, Three Holidays and a Wedding, I'm getting like some Hugh Grant vibes there. Can you give us like the sneakiest little sneak peek there?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

For sure. So, this is my very first co-written novel. I wrote it with Toronto based writer, Marissa Stapley, who wrote — actually her last book was a Reese Witherspoon Book Club pick, it's called Lucky. And we teamed up to write this novel, which is a multi-faith holiday romcom.

It’s set in the year 2000. And this is a real thing that happened. Hanukkah, Christmas, and Ramadan, the Muslim month of fasting all happened in December. And so, we all celebrated these huge holidays within days of each other.

And I just remember I was a much younger person, like a kid, really, but I still remember it felt so magical. And for the first time in my life, I felt kind of included in all of the holiday conversations, the discourse that was happening in December.

And it was beautiful as like all the shelves, the stores were bare because everyone was like frantically buying Eid gifts, and Hanukkah gifts, and Christmas gifts. But it was really, really beautiful.

And so, we thought, “Let's write a novel, basically like a Hallmark type movie, a Netflix type movie that encompasses the spirit of these three holidays being celebrated together.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh, that's excellent. And did that really happen in the year 2000? I don't remember what year it was.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

The Y2K year or the year after?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

The year before. Sorry. It was the December of 2000, so it was around that time. So, Eid, which is a celebration after Ramadan was a December 28th, which means Ramadan started in the beginning of December, last a month.

And Hanukkah was, I believe December 21st or 22nd to the 29th. And of course, Christmas is Christmas. So, it was all around a couple of days of each other. They were all celebrated.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh my gosh. We will absolutely have to take a look and be on the lookout for that. But if you're a teacher and we're coming up on summer and these two books are already happening, then it makes me think that there's probably another one percolating, or that you're taking requests.

So, I'm thinking like, When Harry Met Sally…, 10 Things I Hate About You. Those are just two that are just coming to mind. Like if we can peek behind the curtains-

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I'll add it to my list.

Annmarie Kelly:

… what are you working on? What can I see on your desk there? Show me Just like a page.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

My desk is currently piled with paperwork and novels that I need to read. But I'm always thinking of new stories that I want to explore.

And to be honest, I'm actually thinking of switching gears a little bit. As much as I love romance, I love romance, I’m also, a big fan of mystery, and I'm wanting to dive into mystery for a while.

I feel like kind of like upmarket cozy mysteries is having a moment because of like Rian Johnson's Knives Out, and the Glass Onion, and Poker Face, which was such a fun show as well.

And I've always been a huge fan of classic The Golden Age of Detective Fiction, Agatha Christie. And so, I've got an idea percolating.

Nothing has really happened yet, but I hope to start writing my very first murder mystery novel.

Annmarie Kelly:

That's excellent. I have two teenage daughters and then a 10 year old son, and absolutely, they love, they cannot get enough of mysteries. Those are just flying off the shelf. I wouldn't know a thing about writing them, but Agatha Christie would be a good place to turn, of course.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Definitely. I think I went through a real Agatha Christie phase when I was younger, and I read all of her books, like the entire canon and I got really good at picking out who the killer was.

So, I mean, writing a mystery is intense. You have to write a solid outline and figure everything out before. So, I don't know, let's see what happens.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'll be on the lookout for that. Oh my goodness. I could talk romcoms all day and mysteries, but I do have to wrap for you. So, I always end with just some playful questions. These first ones are just multiple choice. You can just pick one. Okay?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Okay.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright. Cappuccino or chai?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh, cappuccino.

Annmarie Kelly:

Mountains or beach?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Mountains.

Annmarie Kelly:

Dogs or cats?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Cats.

Annmarie Kelly:

Tim Hortons donuts or Biryani Putin?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Neither.

Annmarie Kelly:

Neither. Oh my gosh.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Okay. Biryani Putin was a joke I invented, and now, everyone thinks it's a real dish. But every South Asian is like, “How could you? You're kicked out of the club.”

And to be honest, I love Tim Hortons tea, but I'm not a huge fan of their donuts lately. Tim Hortons, you can do better and you know it.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I like Dunkin' Donuts, though.

Annmarie Kelly:

That's nice. Let's see. Baklava or halal gummy bears?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Baklava.

Annmarie Kelly:

Butter chicken or onion pakoda?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Ooh. Okay. Now, I want an onion pakoda.

Annmarie Kelly:

Your books make me so hungry. They really should come with like just a side of panera or just something.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Agreed.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright. Let's see here. The Tom Hanks, Meg Ryan, romantic comedy, You've Got Mail. Or the Tom Hanks, Meg Ryan romantic comedy, Sleepless in Seattle.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh, You've Got Mail hands down, of course. I mean, yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Although Sleepless in Seattle, I mean, you could put a mystery on that.

Are you an early bird or a night owl?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I am a night owl, but lately, I feel like I've rewired my brain and I'm turning into an early bird. I don't know what happened. It was Ramadan, actually. Ramadan getting up for a month at like five o'clock in the morning, did it for me.

Annmarie Kelly:

It’s hard to be a night owl and teach high school.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yes.

Annmarie Kelly:

I am also, a night owl-

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yes. Thank you. Exactly.

Annmarie Kelly:

And I also, teach high school, and I'm just wrecked in the morning all the time, as are my students. We're all wrecked together.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Exactly. Yeah. No, I've wanted to be an early bird my entire life, and I think I finally did it, so I'm really, really proud of myself.

Annmarie Kelly:

Are you a risk taker or the person who always knows where the band-aids are?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I always know where the band-aids are. It's important. They're in my wallet.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh, that's a good place for them.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah, I keep them in my wallet. Yep.

Annmarie Kelly:

Smart. Alright. These are a few fill in the blanks. If I wasn't working as a teacher and writer, I would be a … what would you like to be if you weren't what you are?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I honestly have no idea. I don't think I would be anything. I would just be there. I would just exist. Oh, I would be a librarian. Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Writer adjacent.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah. Writer adjacent.

Annmarie Kelly:

I was going to say podcaster for Hannah.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh, I can do podcasting.

Annmarie Kelly:

I think you could totally do podcasting.

What's something quirky that people don't always know about you? It could be a like, or a love, a pet peeve. What's quirky that people don't know? I know you said you're boring. I don't believe it.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I'm very boring. I used to be in … oh, I know how to crochet and knit. Is that quirky?

Annmarie Kelly:

I'll go, that's a dying art. Which one is the crochet and which one is the knit? One is like one stick and one is two.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yeah. Crocheting is one stick and knitting is usually two. I'm not very good at it, and I haven't done it for a very long time.

But I kind of want to be really artsy. So, I went through like an embroidery phase. I went through a crocheting phase. I knit half a scarf and a hat. And I sewed like a dress when I was younger. So, I want to be more artsy than I am, but the only art that I've done consistently is writing.

Annmarie Kelly:

Writing takes up all lot of the time, too.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

It takes up all the time. Yeah, that's right.

Annmarie Kelly:

When we were cleaning out my parents' house, I found a blanket that I started weaving for my then baby brother, he's 40 now. Never finished it. I asked him if he wanted it. He's like, “I'm good.”

What's one of your favorite books or some of your favorite books, either to read or to teach?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Well, I love Jane Austen. I have to say, I love teaching Macbeth. Like every year, whenever I'm lucky enough to teach grade 10 and I read it again, I'm like, “This is like an awesome story. There's so many interesting conversations that you can have with Macbeth.” Those are the two canon books.

What's a book that I'm enjoying reading? I love Emily Henry. Anything that she reads is A okay by me. And I'm also, read Toronto writer Carley Fortune's latest, Every Summer After. That was a really fun book.

Sonali Dev wrote a fantastic Jane Austen inspired series based in the South Asian family. My favorite was Recipe for Persuasion, which is also, of course, inspired by Persuasion. I love that book.

I mean, those are just a couple that I can think of off the top of my head. Another romance writer I like is Lucy Parker. She's a really fantastic writer as well.

Annmarie Kelly:

Isn't it nice the writing community is I don't know, it's bountiful.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

It is.

Annmarie Kelly:

Like when you start to explore and meet people … I'm just even on this show, just when I meet people, I'm just like, “You're delightful.” And there's so many wonderful … I mean, it's a really great place to be. I feel lucky to be in the community.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

You know what, most of the writers I've met, I would say probably all of them, have been just really cool, interesting people. Maybe it's a function of being a writer and always being kind of an observer. But there are very few jerks. I haven't met any, everyone I've met has been awesome.

Annmarie Kelly:

Okay, last two. Favorite ice cream?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

I like French vanilla lately. Though, I did polish off a carton of pistachio, so. Pistachio's good.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. I wouldn't send pistachio away. I would take that with a spoon. Yeah.

Alright. Last one. If we were to take a snapshot of you, just a picture of you really happy and doing something you love, what would we see?

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh, I'd be sitting on my couch, watching Never Have I Ever while drinking a steaming hot cup of chai and eating a chocolate chip cookie that I made because I'm a baker.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh my gosh. Can I come over? I promise I-

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Yes, you're invited. Let's watch it together and read homage. It’s a date.

Annmarie Kelly:

Let's watch the last episode of season one, when they're going to spread the ashes. And John McEnroe makes an appearance and Ben says, “I'll drive.”

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Ugh, I love that episode.

Annmarie Kelly:

I love everything about that episode. I just sometimes watch it just when I need it just to pick me up.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

It's genius. The writing of that is just genius. Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

That makes me so happy.

[Music Playing]

Well, Uzma Jalaluddin, thank you so much for making time. In one of your previous books you wrote, quote, “Keep chasing the story in your heart and you'll go far.” Thank you for chasing the stories of your heart and for sharing them with us.

Uzma Jalaluddin:

Oh, thank you so much. This was a delight.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh, well, right back at you.

Folks, Uzma Jalaluddin's most recent novel is called Much Ado About Nada. Great title, great book. You can find it wherever books are sold.

And I'm also, talking to the white people, dudes, just because there's someone in a hijab, get out there and read about other people other than yourselves. Your book clubs are going to love this.

You know you love Pride and Prejudice. You know you love You've Got Mail. You know you love Persuasion, so get out there. Folks, you can find it wherever books are sold.

To everyone listening, we're wishing you love and light wherever the day takes you. Be good to yourself, be good to one another. And we will see you again soon on this wild and precious journey.

Wild Precious Life is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Special thanks to executive producers Gerardo Orlando and Michael DeAloia; producer, Sarah Willgrube; and audio engineer, Ian Douglas. Be sure to subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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