00:06 Frank Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lovallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, and we tell you what happens to them along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel Bleak House by Charles Dickens, and I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith. Elizabeth, Katie, welcome.
00:38 Elizabeth Thank you, Frank. I'm glad to be back. Thanks, Frank.

00:41 Frank Glad to have you both here. Before we get started, I want to give an introduction to Bleak House, written by Charles Dickens and published serially in monthly installments from 1852 to 1853. Set in London around 1850 and considered to be among the author's best works, Bleak House is the story of the Jaundice family, who wait in vain to inherit money from a disputed fortune in the settlement of the extremely long-running lawsuit of Jaundice v. Jaundice. The novel is pointedly critical of England's court of chancery, in which cases could drag on through decades of convoluted legal maneuvering. Besides being a satire, Bleak House is also a detective story, one of the first examples of the genre. Illegal corruption permeates this novel like a disease. issuing in particular from the Byzantine lawsuit with which all the book's characters have a connection. Characters, from the wearingly earnest to the brilliantly shallow, from the foolish and foppish to the vampiristic and dangerous, are all illuminated in the darkness of Dickens' outraged urban opus of social criticism. In reality, it is the public sphere as a whole that is satirized in Bleak House. So Katie, Elizabeth, in my opener for the podcast, I said that we summarize the story for our listeners, we introduce them to the characters, we tell them what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. We don't usually talk about what we're going to talk about. We just tell the story and discuss the characters. But I think for this book, we should step away from the story just for a moment and talk a little bit about the novel, the book itself. This is a big book. The edition we read has over a thousand pages.

02:14 Elizabeth with a lot of characters and a lot of events affecting those characters.

02:18 Katie There are some main stories and characters that run through the story, but certainly a lot of side stories too.

02:25 Frank And you know, with our format, we really can't get to all those great stories and all those interesting characters, and that's why we always encourage our listeners to read the novels we have conversations about. We can only introduce you to the work. If you want to experience it, please read it. The novel opens up with a third-person narrator describing the fog. He says, fog is everywhere. And the fog is both literal and figurative in our novel. London is in a fog and we're quickly introduced to what will be our main character. Elizabeth, I said what will be our main character, not who will be our main character.

02:58 Elizabeth That's the lawsuit of Jaundice and Jaundice. And just as London is in a fog, the lawsuit is a fog. It has been before the Lord Chancellor at the Chancery, the British courts, for generations already. Our understanding of what exactly this case entails is unclear and remains unclear, but it has something to do with somebody's will.

03:20 Katie And the narrator doesn't tell us exactly who is involved in the case or exactly what issue the lawsuit addresses. Actually, the narrator acknowledges that, quote, no man alive knows what it means. The fogginess of the case is chronic. The gloomy aspect of fog are also connected to this case.

03:40 Frank Elizabeth, both Katie and I mentioned the narrator, but in the third chapter, we're introduced to a new narrator.

03:46 Elizabeth In chapter 3, Esther Somerson takes over as a first-person narrator. And now, I don't know about you two, but that definitely took me by surprise. I was not expecting it to switch, you know, from third person to first person.

03:59 Frank Right. Just to be clear, the first two chapters are narrated to us by a third person. We don't really know who this person is, but he knows a lot of what's going on. And as you said, it is a bit of a jarring switch when we get to Esther Somerson.

04:13 Elizabeth Yeah, and I don't know if any of Dickens's other books have first-person.

04:17 Frank I can't recall and to be honest with you I've certainly not read all of the Dickens novels, but I don't remember one being narrated by a woman either Yeah, no, this is the only woman is that right? Okay, so both somewhat different for for Dickens, but I will say he did an excellent job with her.

04:34 Elizabeth I

04:34 Frank And I think he did a really good job. Once you figure out what's going on, he did a great job with the switching of narrators. It's not constant, but each narrator gets a few chapters and this way we get a personal view from Esther and then we get a dispassionate view from that third person. Right.

04:51 Katie When it first happened, I did have to go back and see if I'd missed something in the first couple chapters. And then I, as I kept going, I figured it out.

04:59 Frank Realized it. Well, let's get back to chapter 3 in Esther Summerson. What does she reveal to us? What does she tell us about herself in her chapter?

05:06 Katie Well, we learned she's an orphan being raised by her godmother miss Barbary and Elizabeth.

05:11 Frank How is miss Barbary described?

05:12 Elizabeth Esther says she is fully virtuous, but distant and very strict. And she tells us her birthdays were always the saddest day of the year.

05:21 Katie She tells us about her most recent birthday when she demanded to know what happened to her mother. And her godmother reveals that Esther was her mother's disgrace, and that her mother was a disgrace as well.

05:34 Frank And as a result of that conversation, the distance between Esther and her godmother grows wider.

05:39 Elizabeth And two years later, when Esther is 14, her godmother dies suddenly, and a stranger appears and introduces himself as Mr. Kenge. He reveals that Esther's godmother was actually her aunt. Kenge says that as part of the Jarndis and Jarndis lawsuit, Esther will live with Mr. Jarndis and she will be educated and comfortable.

06:00 Frank Okay, with that introduction to our book and a couple of the characters, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll introduce more of the important characters from our novel, and we'll get on with our conversation about Bleak House by Charles Dickens. We'll be right back. Welcome back. When we left, we had introduced Esther Summerson as an orphan being raised by the woman she thought was her godmother. After the godmother's death, we and Esther learned the woman was actually her aunt, sister to her mother.

06:37 Katie And we're told that as part of the Jaundice and Jaundice lawsuit, Esther will live with Mr. Jaundice on his estate, which is Bleak House. She will be educated and comfortable and serve as a companion to another of his wards.

06:51 Frank And we're soon introduced to two characters who will feature greatly as the novel progresses, Ada Clare and Richard Carstone. Elizabeth, you want to tell me a little bit about Ada Clare?

07:01 Elizabeth She's also a ward of Jaundice. Kind, sweet, beautiful, and naive, Ada becomes Esther's closest, confident, and greatest source of happiness. She also falls in love with her cousin Richard.

07:13 Katie And Richard Carstone is also a ward of Jaundice. Affable but lazy, Richard can't decide on a career and seems to have no passion for a particular field. He eventually becomes obsessed with the Jaundice and Jaundice case.

07:28 Elizabeth All three young people are to be taken to Bleak House, where Mr. Jarndis lives. Esther has been chosen as Ada's companion. It turns out that Ada and Richard are related to the Jarndis and Jarndis case, and they could profit greatly from it. but Esther is not related to the case.

07:45 Frank And at this point, that's all we're really told about Ada and Richard's relationship to the case. They're somehow related to it, might profit eventually, but that's all we're told at this point. And then on their way to Bleak House, Ada, Esther, and Richard meet a strange old woman in a small town.

08:03 Katie She leads them to her house nearby, which is above a shop, and at the shop the sign reads, Crook Rag and Bottle Warehouse and Crook Dealer and Marine Stores. Esther recognizes some handwriting on the law books that are scattered around the shop, and she recognizes it as being the same as some of the papers that Enge had given her when he told her about her mother.

08:28 Elizabeth And an old man opens the door and greets them, saying they should come into the shop. The old woman identifies the man as her landlord, Crook. He seems insane, and so does she. He knows a lot about the Jaundice case and tells them how Tom Jaundice shot himself.

08:44 Frank Soon after this, Esther, Richard, and Ada leave the city and they head deep into the country. The three are excited and nervous to see Bleak House and meet Richard and Ada's cousin, John Jaundice.

08:55 Katie Bleak House sits atop a hill and finally comes into view as Mr. Jaundice greets the trio enthusiastically and takes them all inside.

09:04 Elizabeth Esther describes Bleak House as a complex warren of rooms that one can easily get lost in. Despite its name, Bleak House proves to be unintimidating and warm. She, Ada, and Richard love the house.

09:18 Katie And Mr. Jaundice gives Esther two bunches of keys for the housekeeping. Esther is pleased that he trusts her this much.

09:25 Frank And once they all settle in, Mr. Jaundice announces a visitor for dinner, who he claims is a child, but not a real child. He says that this person has many children, but doesn't look after them because he himself is a child. He then notes that the wind seems to be stirring up.

09:41 Elizabeth And throughout the novel, Mr. Jarndis mentions the wind anytime he is upset. That's his way of saying that he's stressed out or upset about something.

09:52 Frank Right. He's constantly commenting on the wind, asking the other characters, have you noticed the wind is up?

09:57 Katie Yeah. And so the guest arrives, Harold Skimple. He describes himself and says that he has no idea about time or money and has therefore never made much of himself. He just wants to live freely.

10:10 Frank He really is a childlike man, isn't he?

10:14 Katie I guess so.

10:14 Elizabeth Both Katie and I hate Mr. Skimple.

10:18 Katie I don't know if childlike is the right word, but he's definitely childish.

10:23 Frank Childish, maybe that is a better word. Hey, you know, Dickens doesn't want you to like all his characters, but everyone is enchanted with him.

10:30 Elizabeth Yes, Richard and Ada sing together by the piano and Mr. Skimpole greatly admires Ada's beauty. Esther thinks Mr. Jarndus gives her a look, suggesting that he hopes Richard and Ada's relationship will grow deeper someday. Then everyone goes to bed.

10:46 Frank And this is when our narrator returns. He returns while Esther is sleeping, and he tells us that it's raining on the Ghost Walk by a house called Chesney Wald in Lincolnshire. Elizabeth, what do we learn about Chesney Wald, and more specifically, what do we learn about the inhabitants of Chesney Wald?

11:03 Elizabeth Lady Deadlock is mistress of Chesney Wald. She is highly revered and wealthy and is married to Sir Lester.

11:10 Katie And Sir Lester Deadlock is master of Chesney Wald. He's a strong and respected man.

11:16 Frank And the narrator tells us that Sir Lester and the lady are in Paris. And then we get a story about the housekeeper, Mrs. Ronswell. She's been there for more than 50 years with the family. She lives there now with a grandson named Watt and has a maid named Rosa.

11:30 Katie And one day, Rosa enters the room and tells Mrs. Ronswell two men had come by, one of whom gave her a card for Mrs. Ronswell. Watt reads the card, which says Mr. Guppy. Rosa says that he and the other man were from London and had heard about Chesneywold. Mr. Guppy said he was not from Mr. Talkinghorn's office, but that Mr. Talkinghorn knows him.

11:53 Elizabeth Mrs. Runswell invites the men in and they look around the house. She tells them that the portrait over the fireplace is of Lady Deadlock. Mr. Guppy recognizes her and is stunned. His curiosity about Lady Deadlock and her connection to Mr. Tolkienhorn grows.

12:09 Katie And he admires the terrace and Mrs. Runswell tells him that it is called the Ghost's Walk after an old family story. And then the men leave.

12:18 Frank And then Mrs. Ronswell tells the story of Ghost Walk to Watt and Rosa. She believes the family deserves a ghost. Katie?

12:25 Katie The story goes as follows. Sir Morberry Deadlock's wife betrayed the family by giving information to King Charles's enemies. She eavesdropped on conversations between her husband and the king's allies. She and Sir Morberry were not suited for each other. Sir Marbury's relatives killed her favorite brother in the Civil Wars, and now she hates Sir Marbury's family and the King's cause. So one night, Sir Marbury caught her spying, grabbed her, and in the process, her hip was hurt, and she began to waste away.

12:59 Elizabeth Every day she tried to walk on the terrace and one day she collapsed. She declared that she would die where she had walked and would haunt the terrace until the house's pride was destroyed. Mrs. Roundswell says that footsteps are always heard but that disgrace has never come to the house.

13:14 Frank And then in Chapter 8, Esther narrates us once again. She gets dressed, she does her housework, and then she joins Mr. Jaundice in the room he calls the growlery, where he goes when he's in a bad mood or when the wind is blowing from the east. Esther is overcome with emotion, kisses his hand in gratitude for everything he's done for her, but he quickly stops her effusiveness.

13:34 Elizabeth And it had been mentioned before they met Mr. Jardis that he was very, very generous, but never ever wanted people to thank him for anything. So he's very generous, but he doesn't want the praise from other people for what he's done.

13:51 Frank Which explains why he quickly stops her from being so effusive in her gratitude.

13:56 Katie Right. And he tells her the chancery business with the Jaundice case is about a will and costs. The longer it goes on, the more the costs are. The money the will was to have distributed has now been spent on the lawsuit. He says that Tom Jaundice, the man who shot himself, was his uncle. Bleak House used to belong to Tom, who had called it the Peaks. He says that there is some property in London that is also part of the suit.

14:24 Elizabeth Mr. Joinders tells Esther that he trusts her discretion, and says he believes she is clever enough. He compares her to an old woman in a rhyme, and Esther gets the nickname Old Woman. He then asks Esther's advice for what Richard should do in the future. He suggests that Esther talk to him about it. She once again thanks him effusively.

14:45 Frank And as the novel progresses, we learn a little bit more about daily life at Bleak House.

14:50 Katie And Esther describes the bustling life at Bleak House. She answers all of Mr. Jaundice's letters for him, many of which are from people asking for money. And he is very generous with his money. He sends some to people in need. She expresses astonishment that she is still writing about herself. She says that Richard is very fond of Ada, and they are falling in love. And Esther hides their secret.

15:13 Elizabeth Richard is thinking of becoming a sailor. Mr. Jaundice writes to his relative, Sir Lester Dedlock of Chesney Wald, to see if he can advance Richard's career. But Sir Dedlock confesses that he can be of no help. Richard is not bothered by the news.

15:29 Frank I don't think Richard really wants to be anything. Yeah. Maybe a sailor sounds romantic. I'm not sure. Anyway, one morning, Mr. Jaundice gets a letter from an old classmate named Lawrence Boithorn.

15:40 Katie Jaundice describes him as loud, impetuous, and hardy, with incredibly strong lungs and a tendency to speak in extremes. When Boithorn visits Bleak House, he proves himself to speak always in superlatives and to have house-shaking laughs. Everyone likes him. At dinner, Boithorn introduces his small pet bird who sits on his head. Boithorn tells Jaundice he should be more forceful in setting the Jaundice and Jaundice lawsuit.

16:09 Frank And Elizabeth, Boythorne knows something about lawsuits.

16:12 Elizabeth Yes, Boythorne describes a trespassing suit he is involved in with his neighbor, Sir Lester of Chesney Wald.

16:18 Frank Again.

16:19 Elizabeth Yep. And Boythorne hates the whole family, although his anger is mitigated by his laugh and the bird sitting on his head.

16:27 Frank And then the next morning, Crenge, Mr. Crenge and Carboy's clerk, Mr. Guppy, arrive to see Boythorne.

16:33 Katie And Esther is happy to see him again and tells him that she will serve him lunch when he has finished his meeting. He asks her if she will be there and she says yes. At lunch, Mr. Guppy reveals that he is in love with her and wants to marry her.

16:48 Frank Well, you know, that was really out of the blue. If my memory serves, and occasionally it does, Esther's only met him a couple of three times maybe.

16:56 Elizabeth Yeah, I thought maybe they had only met once before right so it was kind of a strange proposal. Yes Esther is horrified and refuses him He tells her that his feelings will never change and that she should contact him if she changes her mind and Esther really has to convince him that she is not interested once he is gone Esther cries and

17:20 Frank All right, and then chapter 12 starts us back with our third-person narrator, and he describes a rainy scene at Chesney Wald. Lady Dedlock and Sir Leister have returned from Paris. Lady Dedlock couldn't wait to leave Paris because she was so bored. A common complaint of hers. In the carriage, Sir Leister tells Lady Dedlock that while looking through his mail that Mr. Tulkinghorn sends his greetings and has something to tell her when she returns.

17:45 Katie At Chesney Wald, Mrs. Ronswell, the housekeeper, introduces Rosa to Lady Deadlock, who thinks Rosa is beautiful and strokes her cheeks before going upstairs. Later, Lady Deadlock's maid, a French woman named Hortense, is bitterly jealous of Rosa. Hortense has worked for Lady Deadlock for five years, but Lady Deadlock has always distanced herself from Hortense.

18:09 Elizabeth And they describe Hortense as being rather feline looking, right? Like a cat. And now that they are back, Lady Deadlock and Sir Lester invite many people to Chesney Wall to spend a week or two. Every night, Lady Deadlock asks if Mr. Tolkienhorn has arrived yet. He tends to arrive unannounced and goes straight to the tower room that is always reserved for him. Mr. Tolkienhorne eventually does arrive. The narrator describes Tolkienhorne as looking as though he has secrets everywhere in his body.

18:41 Katie Mr. Tolkienhorne discusses the lawsuit concerning Mr. Boythorne and Sir Lester. Sir Lester is unwilling to compromise in any way.

18:50 Elizabeth And Lady Deadlock asks Mr. Tolkienhorn what he wants to tell her, and he says it has to do with some handwriting she had asked him about. When he went in search of the writer, he found him dead. They discuss this man, whose name is Nemo, and the fact that no one knows anything about him. And the name Nemo, I believe, means no one. Is that right?

19:10 Frank I think so. Yes.

19:11 Elizabeth It's Latin. During this conversation, Lady Deadlock and Mr. Tolkienhorn never look away from each other, but seem to take little note of each other in the days that follow.

19:21 Frank We then get Esther's narration again, and she says that she, Richard, and Mr. Jaundice have many conversations about what Richard should become. Esther worries that his unstable upbringing has made him indecisive.

19:33 Katie But Richard is indifferent and goes along with whatever they suggest, eventually deciding to pursue medicine. Various guests support Richard's decision, including Mr. Boithorn and Mr. Kenge. Mr. Kenge promises to arrange a place for Richard to study medicine with his cousin.

19:50 Elizabeth At home later that night after a dinner with the Badgers, a local family, Ada confesses a secret to Esther. She and Richard are in love. Esther is not surprised at all. Richard confides in her as well, and Esther observes that both Ada and Richard really love her. Richard is certain that the Jarndis and Jarndis lawsuit is going to make him and Ada rich. Ada immediately cautions him not to think about the lawsuit and just to, you know, continue on with life as if the lawsuit was not an issue. And find a job. Exactly. That's the reason he's so indifferent is because he thinks he's going to win this lawsuit.

20:30 Katie And now he doesn't have to work, which he doesn't want to do anyway.

20:33 Elizabeth Exactly. Esther tells the news to Mr. Jaundice, who approves, but advises caution.

20:39 Katie And she offhandedly remarks that a young surgeon with a dark complexion attended the Badger's dinner as well, and she found him quite nice.

20:48 Frank And that's all she says about that, and then they're off to London. Mr. Jaundice, Esther, and Ada, they go to visit Mrs. Flight, the old woman who lives above Crook's shop. Mrs. Flight is with a doctor, a Mr. Woodcourt, who explains that Mrs. Flight was upset by a death that had recently occurred.

21:03 Elizabeth Ms. Flight tells them that she is fortunate because Mr. Guppy gives her money regularly, and that she expects a judgment from the Jarndus and Jarndus case soon.

21:12 Frank Another one living on hopes from this case.

21:14 Elizabeth Yeah, so she's devoted her entire life to attending these court sessions for the Jarndus and Jarndus case, and everyone comments on how she's, you know, crazy, but I think it's probably this case that has caused her to be that way.

21:31 Frank Well, as we've said before, there's a lot of people that are slightly, I guess, crazy is the word we'll use, over this case, up to and including Richard.

21:39 Katie Yeah, right. And there's so many people who are just living their life as if they're going to win. But at this point, it's branched out to so many descendants.

21:48 Frank And not only those who will win, we've got lawyers involved here and law clerks involved, and they're all looking for their piece of flesh or their piece of this case.

21:57 Katie Then Crook shows up and introduces himself to Mr. Jaundice. He acts like he has a secret that he wants to reveal and he tries to get Mr. Jaundice to stay longer, but finally Mr. Jaundice and the others leave.

22:10 Elizabeth And then Esther informs us that Mr. Woodcourt is the surgeon who had been at dinner at the Badger's house.

22:16 Frank And Esther also tells us that Richard visits London frequently. Esther loves Richard, but regrets that he seems unable to concentrate and lacks ambition. And sure enough, when Richard arrives the next day, he confirms that he's not really that interested in medicine, but he guesses it's good enough for the moment.

22:32 Katie So Esther and Ada encourage him to change directions, again. Richard says he might like to work with Mr. Kenge and study law. Mr. Jarndist supports that decision, although he sees trouble when he looks at Ada.

22:46 Elizabeth Esther says she has trouble sleeping, but she is evasive about why. One night she comes across Mr. Jarndist who is still awake and looks troubled. He tells her she should know more about her history.

22:58 Frank And so he tells her that he recently got a letter describing a young orphan whom the writer had been raising. The writer feared that if she died, the child would be alone, and so she wrote to ask Mr. Jaundice if he would serve as guardian if that should happen. He wrote back saying yes, and he had to agree never to see the writer but to send a confidential agent. So Jaundice appointed Mr. Crenge. The writer said that she was the child's aunt.

23:22 Katie Mr. Jaundice says he is so happy to have taken on this child, Esther. Esther replies gratefully that he is like a father to her, a comment that seems to bother him. Esther doesn't understand his reaction though.

23:36 Frank And it's the next day that Mr. Woodcourt arrives for a brief visit before going away on a long trip to China and India. Esther tells us that he isn't rich and is seven years older than she is, although she says those details to her are irrelevant. He brings his mother to dinner, Mrs. Woodcourt, and she's confident that he'll meet some English ladies in India and that birth and lineage are of utmost importance. Esther wonders idly what Mrs. Woodcourt would think of her birth.

24:03 Elizabeth After they leave, a friend of Esther's, whose name is Caddy, arrives with a small bouquet of flowers. They look like flowers from a lover. Caddy reveals that they were actually left behind at Miss Flight's by somebody for Esther. She hints that this person was very good to Miss Flight and was going away on a trip. Later, Ada laughs and teases Esther about the flowers being from a lover. Esther doesn't reveal who they are all referring to.

24:30 Frank Well, what do we think, Elizabeth?

24:31 Elizabeth It's Mr. Woodcourt.

24:33 Frank That's not what I thought. Katie, what did you think?

24:35 Katie Oh, I thought Woodcourt. Who did you think?

24:37 Frank Who knows Mrs. Flight better than anyone? Guppy? Guppy.

24:41 Katie That didn't even cross my mind.

24:42 Frank He's a guy who's been very nice to her.

24:47 Elizabeth Oh, but I think Esther thought it was from Woodcourt.

24:50 Katie Yeah, because she saves them. She presses them.

24:53 Frank I guess I forgot that detail, but I think they're from Guppy.

24:56 Elizabeth Oh, it could be from Guppy. She definitely thinks that they are from Woodcourt. Yeah, she thinks they're from Woodcourt. But maybe they're not. Who knows? If they were from Guppy, she'd throw them in the fire.

25:06 Frank And if any of our listeners want to know, read the book.

25:10 Elizabeth We read the book and we don't even know.

25:12 Frank And there you have it. Esther, Ada, and Mr. Jaundice get back to Bleak House and Richard does in fact go to work for Mr. Kenge. Mr. Jaundice finds lodging for Richard in London and Richard spends money wildly, money he does not have yet.

25:26 Elizabeth Yeah, he quickly goes into debt. Then Jaundice, Esther, and Ada go to visit Mr. Boythorne, who lives in Lincolnshire. Mr. Boythorne leads them to his house, but must take an inconvenient route because he has sworn not to set foot on Sir Lester's property, Chesney Wald, which is right next to his own. However, he tells the guests that they may explore Sir Lester's park. Esther says that Chesney Wald appears beautiful and peaceful.

25:54 Katie Mr. Boithorn's house is described as pretty and comfortable, although Mr. Boithorn has put up several signs threatening trespassers, namely Sir Lester. The day after they arrive, the group explore the park. In the church, they see several pretty young women, including the woman Mr. Boithorn has his eyes on, the young woman Rosa. She is standing with the housekeeper, Mrs. Ronsvall, and near them is the French woman who is glaring at her.

26:22 Elizabeth Esther glances around the church and a woman catches her eye. Esther has a rather violent reaction. She has a feeling that is similar to the feeling she had at her godmother's house when she would play with her doll and look at herself in the mirror. In fact, the woman's face is very similar to Esther's face and she feels like she is looking in a mirror.

26:45 Katie But Esther knows she has never seen this woman before. She figures out that the woman is Lady Deadlock. Esther is incredibly agitated.

26:54 Frank And Mrs. Ronswell, the housekeeper, observes that the footsteps on Ghost Walk are louder than they've ever been before. And with that moment, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll talk about why Esther is so agitated and the increasingly louder footsteps on Ghost Walk. We'll be right back. And we're back. When we took our break, Esther was agitated after seeing Lady Deadlock, and the housekeeper noted the increasingly louder footsteps on Ghost Walk at Chesney Wald. About a week later, Mr. Jaundice, Ada, and Esther are walking the park when it begins raining. They take shelter in a groundskeeper's lodge, and someone asks if it's dangerous.

27:37 Elizabeth Ada thinks Esther has spoken, but it is Lady Deadlock who is also in the lodge. Esther has another violent reaction to the voice because it makes her think of herself. So they not only look alike, but they sound alike.

27:50 Katie And then Lady Deadlock introduces herself to Mr. Jaundice and Ada. Mr. Jaundice introduces Esther as his ward.

27:57 Elizabeth Lady Deadlock hastily turns away. Lady Deadlock asks Mr. Jarundus if he knew her sister when they were abroad, and he says that he did. Lady Deadlock says that she and her sister have gone their separate ways.

28:09 Frank Eventually, a carriage does arrive for Lady Deadlock, and it's carrying the pretty young girl, Rosa, and the French woman. Lady Deadlock had requested only the young girl, but the French woman had to come as well. There's no room in the carriage for the French woman after Lady Deadlock gets in, so the maid has to walk after it in the rain, barefoot. I'm sure that made her feel good.

28:28 Elizabeth Oh, yeah. Well, she didn't have to be barefoot. She chose to be barefoot.

28:32 Frank True, and she didn't have to be there, but she didn't want Rosa going off for Miss Deadlock.

28:37 Katie In his continued inquiry, Mr. Guppy hears about a street urchin named Joe with an interesting tale. Joe tells everyone about a lady wearing lots of rings who gave him money to show her where the dead man was buried. Mr. Guppy is interested in Joe's story about the lady and starts asking him questions.

28:56 Frank This is the dead man that we now know as Nemo?

28:59 Katie I think so, yes.

29:00 Frank Joe's description of the lady seemed familiar to Guppy, but we're still left to wonder what was the connection between Talking Horn and the dead man, and between Lady Deadlock and the dead man. What is the link? We still don't know. And at this point, some things start to move quickly, and we need to find an end for a conversation that could go on for hours. Uh, Lady Deadlock's discovery that Esther is actually the daughter she believed dead is the first true climax at Bleak House, and sets up the primary conflict and storyline of the second half of the novel. Lady Deadlock, who seemed cold and haughty and privileged to us at first, she suddenly becomes a little bit more sympathetic now that we know some of her story.

29:39 Elizabeth Oh, that was fast. Not only does she have a secret that could destroy her reputation and social standing, but she suffered a traumatic loss long ago. For her, Esther has practically risen from the grave, and the revelation is so overwhelming that she falls to her knees.

29:56 Katie I think the newly established connection between Esther and Lady Deadlock complicates everything and makes us question how much the other characters really know.

30:05 Frank We know that Guppy's nosing around, for example, but we aren't even sure how much he knows. Soon Guppy does visit and asks if Lady Deadlock knows Esther Summerson.

30:15 Elizabeth She says she met Esther last fall. Guppy asks if Esther reminded her of any of her relatives. Lady Deadlock says no, but she doesn't take her eyes off Guppy as she speaks. Guppy persists and says that he sees a strong resemblance between Esther and Lady Deadlock. He saw Lady Deadlock's portrait at Chesney Wald.

30:36 Katie And Guppy then says that Esther's birth and upbringing are mysteries and he hopes somehow to prove that she's part of Lady Deadlock's family so that she can be made a party to the Jaundice and Jaundice case.

30:49 Frank It's all about that lawsuit.

30:52 Elizabeth He's really doing all this to try and get Esther to reconsider his marriage proposal. He tells Lady Deadlock that he has found out that Esther's guardian before Mr. Jarndis was a Miss Barbary.

31:06 Katie And Lady Deadlock turns pale. She says that she did once know Miss Barbary, but that, to her knowledge, there was no family connection.

31:15 Frank And Guppy says that although Miss Barbary said very little, she did tell Esther that her real name was Esther Hardin. Lady Deadlock is shocked, but covers it quickly. She says she'd never heard the name Hardin.

31:27 Elizabeth Guppy tells her that the lodger who was found dead at Crooks, whose name was Nemo, was really named Captain Hardin.

31:35 Katie And how after the death, a strange woman followed a young boy to Hardin's grave. Guppy asked if Lady Deadlock would like to see the boy, but she says no.

31:45 Frank And he tells her the boy said that the woman had many rings on her fingers.

31:49 Elizabeth And the narrator tells us that Lady Deadlock is wearing many diamond rings.

31:54 Frank Finally, Guppy says that Hardin left behind some letters, which he will obtain tomorrow. And if the ladies connect Lady Deadlock to all of this, he'll bring them to her. He leaves.

32:03 Katie But don't forget about the French maid.

32:05 Frank As if I could.

32:06 Katie Lady Deadlock's French maid, Mademoiselle Hortense, surprisingly appears in Mr. Talking Horn's office, adding to the not-so-mysterious mystery of who the woman is that Joe, the young boy, took to the dead lodger's grave. They make a deal for the information.

32:25 Frank And we haven't mentioned him much, but Joe's becoming an integral figure in this novel. He seems to be the only one common denominator among all these different worlds, leading characters to one another and serving as a link between them. Although Joe makes the same claim again and again that he doesn't know anything, the fact that he seems to know everyone suggests that he's aware of much more than he lets on.

32:48 Elizabeth Well, finally, Lady Deadlock and Esther meet again.

32:51 Katie And Lady Deadlock approaches Esther and inquires about her health. She starts to cry and reveals to Esther that she is her mother.

33:00 Elizabeth Lady Deadlock begs for Esther's forgiveness and says that she must continue to keep this secret for Selester's sake. Lady Deadlock is overcome with grief and guilt, but she says they can never communicate again.

33:13 Katie And Esther asks if the secret is safe, and Lady Deadlock says that Guppy or Talking Horn may reveal it anytime soon. She tells Esther to confide in Mr. Jaundice if she wants to.

33:25 Frank And then Esther tells us that Lady Deadlock gives her a letter, but says that she'll tell us the contents of the letter at another time.

33:32 Elizabeth Esther calls on Mr. Guppy and tells him that whatever favor that he's trying to do for her, trying to prove for her, please do not. Just leave it alone. She tells him, I don't need any help from you, because she's very afraid that he's going to uncover the secret. And then not long after that, Tolkienhorn is found dead. At first, some people suspect that Lady Deadlock killed him, but it turns out that he was killed by her former maid, Mademoiselle Hortense, after Tolkienhorn reneged on their deal.

34:07 Frank And now Lady Deadlock understands that her secret is really no longer a secret. She leaves a note for Sir Leicester saying that she didn't murder Talking Horn, but that she is guilty of everything else. From here, Lady Deadlock leaves, fearing the truth would ruin her husband. She's also eventually found dead, actually by the grave of Captain Hardin, the secret lover that she had had Esther with.

34:31 Katie And then we quickly learn of Ada and Richard's hasty, secret marriage. Fearing Mr. Woodcourt would never return from his travels, or worse, return married, Esther accepts a marriage proposal from Mr. John.

34:43 Frank And both of these events turn the once happy foursome of Bleak House into two awkward pairings, Ada and Richard, Esther and Mr. Jaundice.

34:51 Elizabeth And Sir Lester, hearing of his wife's death, collapses and never recovers.

34:56 Katie And as the novel continues, Ada gets pregnant, but Richard continues obsessing over the Jaundice and Jaundice lawsuit, and his hopes of eventual riches destroys their marriage.

35:08 Elizabeth And after Mr. Woodcourt returns, Mr. Jarndis sees what Esther feels for him, and he releases her to marry Woodcourt. He even gives them his house in London as a wedding gift and calls it Bleak House.

35:23 Frank And Katie, finally, what happens with the lawsuit?

35:26 Katie Well, one day as they're walking outside, they run into someone who tells them that it has finally been settled and that the beneficiaries of the will are Ada and Richard. And Richard, having the lawsuit be the only thing that was keeping him alive at this point, now dies of tuberculosis.

35:44 Frank And that's essentially how our novel ends. Some good news for Esther, some bad news for Ada. Let's take a final break and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. We'll be right back. Welcome back. Before our break, we ended our story and now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Certainly in a book this vast, there are many characters and events that we really had to bypass. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

36:26 Elizabeth Yes, I do. So one person that we didn't really get to talk about was Mrs. Jelly Bee. Now, Mrs. Jelly Bee had children and a husband, but she was completely focused on a mission case in Africa. And I'm not exactly sure what the mission was, but it was some type of charity that she was really invested in. And she spent all of her time working on this charity, writing letters and so on, raising money for this charity. She made her teenage daughter write all of these letters and do all this work. And she completely neglected her family. Her daughter was completely miserable. Her daughter ended up marrying very young just to get away from her family. And I think that this is a contrast to Mr. Jaundice, where Mrs. Jellaby and her friends are all so focused on their cases, their missions, their charities that are in other countries, and they are completely ignoring their own families and making their own families miserable. Whereas Mr. Jarndis is taking care of all of the people in his community and all of the people that he knows, all of the people that come to him who need help and need his money. He takes care of them. And while these other women are wanting praise and wanting to have to feel good about what they're doing. He's just doing this from the generosity of his heart, and he doesn't want any thanks. He doesn't want any praise. He just wants to take care of the people around him.

38:05 Frank Yes, and I think Mrs. Jelebi is really Dickens' metaphor for the English people that do not believe charity starts at home. They believe that they can be charitable to other peoples, to other lands, as you said, to Africa, but they neglect the people that are right in front of them. They neglect their own citizens in order to stroke their own egos by saying, well, I donated to this charity in Africa, or I donated to this charity in India. And so I think that's that's a more of the social criticism that we get from Dickens. Yeah, Katie.

38:34 Katie Do you have something? yeah, one thing that I wanted to highlight was the relationship between Esther and Ada and that it is such a strong and beautiful friendship, but also that Charles Dickens has really Portrayed a woman's mind really well. Oh, yes, I agree within their relationship I'm thinking of one part in particular where Esther is engaged to Jaundice and Ada has secretly married Richard and they're both keeping this secret from each other and they're both somewhat tormented by it and it's affecting the way that they're able to be friends to each other at that time and it's just such a natural thing that happens all the time and he has portrayed it so well and so simply.

39:19 Frank I also agree with that. What I wanted to talk about was the lawsuit, the historical basis for the lawsuit that's at the core of this novel. It really was based on several lawsuits that Dickens was familiar with, cases that had gone on in the chancery for, as we said, generations, for almost 100 years. One in particular that was mentioned was concerned a man called William Jennings. He had a will written in his pocket when he died, but he hadn't signed it because he had forgotten to take his glasses to the lawyers. So when he died, they found this unsigned will, and it became the matter of intense litigation for almost 100 years. And it said that at the time, William Jennings was thought to be one of Britain's wealthiest men. So you can understand the lengths that people went to to become part of this lawsuit. And these lawsuits, one of the reasons they go on forever is you've got old litigants that die, you have new young litigants that are added, judges and lawyers come and go, judges die, new issues are brought up, and constantly every action taken by a court or a lawyer costs money. And it continues to nibble away and nibble away at the estate that is at the center of the lawsuit. And by the time some of these cases are settled, There really is no money left for the inheritors. Certainly in our case, money was left for Richard and Ada, but they're not going to get a chance to enjoy it. So these cases were very familiar to Dickens, as I said, and he wanted to shine some light on what was going on in the English legal system.

40:53 Katie Stranger than fiction.

40:54 Frank And sometimes fiction can absolutely be more truthful than fiction. Before we end our conversation, I just want to ask our listeners one more time, if you enjoyed this conversation, please read the book. As Katie and Elizabeth have both said, we had to leave out a lot of stories, we had to leave out a lot of characters. It really makes for a fuller novel, a fuller experience when you read this book. So please, please, read this book and then maybe have a novel conversation of your own. With that said, you've been listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lovallo. I want to thank Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith for you guys coming in and having this conversation with me. I really enjoyed it.

41:33 Elizabeth Thank you so much, Frank. Me too, Frank. It's been fun.

41:36 Frank Until next episode, I hope you all find yourself in a novel conversation. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Portile. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Fouts, and Grace Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Bridget Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lovallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.