00:07 Frank Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by Robert Louis Stevenson. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. Elizabeth, Gregory, welcome. Glad to have you both here for this conversation. But before we get started, I want to give a quick introduction to The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by Robert Louis Stevenson. Published in 1886, The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is a gothic novella by Scottish author Robert Louis Stevenson. The story of Jekyll and Hyde is one of the most well-known in the English language, and few readers come to this novel without knowing the secret behind the relationship of the title characters. Nevertheless, it's important to remember that Stevenson's novel does not reveal this secret until the very end. Instead, the book presents us with what seems like a detective novel, beginning with a sinister figure of unknown origin, a mysterious act of violence, and hints of blackmail and secret scandal. The opening scenes also contain vaguely supernatural elements, particularly in the strange dread that Hyde inspires. It is this sense of supernatural terror breaking into everyday reality that places the strange case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde firmly within the tradition of gothic fiction, along with such gothic masterpieces as Dracula, Frankenstein, and Jane Eyre. Much of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is written in a brisk, businesslike, and factual way, like a police report on a strange affair rather than a novel. This tone derives from the personality of Mr. Utterson, but also seems to arise from the text itself. The title, The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and chapter headings such as The Incident of the Letter and Incident at the Window contribute to this reserved, dispassionate tone. So, Elizabeth, why don't you start our conversation?

02:13 Elizabeth As the story begins, Mr. Utterson and Mr. Enfield are taking their regular Sunday stroll. Mr. Utterson is a wealthy, well-respected London lawyer, a reserved and perhaps even boring man, who nevertheless inspires a strange fondness in those who know him. Despite his eminent respectability, he never abandons a friend whose reputation has been sullied or ruined.

02:36 Gregory And Gregory, what about Enfield? Utterson nurtures a close friendship with Mr. Enfield, his distant relatives, and likewise a respectable London gentleman.

02:45 Elizabeth The two seem to have little in common, and when they take their weekly walk together, they often go for quite a distance without saying anything to one another. Nevertheless, they look forward to these strolls as one of the high points of their week.

02:57 Frank Gregory, tell me about this particular stroll, this particular walk.

03:01 Gregory Well, here they're taking their regular Sunday stroll and walking down a particularly prosperous looking street. They come upon a neglected building, which seems out of place in the neighborhood, and Enfield relates a story in connection with it.

03:13 Elizabeth Enfield was walking in the same neighborhood late one night when he witnessed a shrunken, misshapen man crash into and trample a young girl. He collared the man before he could get away and then brought him back to the girl, around whom an angry crowd had gathered. The captured man appeared so overwhelmingly ugly that the crowd immediately despised him.

03:36 Gregory The crowd threatened to ruin this ugly man's good name unless he did something to make amends. The man, seeing himself trapped, bought them off with £100, which he obtained upon entering the neglected building through its only door.

03:48 Elizabeth Strangely enough, the check bore the name of a very reputable man, and in spite of Enfield's suspicions, it proved to be legitimate and not a forgery. Enfield hypothesizes that the ugly culprit had somehow blackmailed the man whose name appeared on the check. Spurning gossip, however, Enfield refuses to reveal that name.

04:09 Frank But as a lawyer, Utterson asks several pointed questions. Enfield tries to describe the nature of this mysterious man's ugliness, but can't really express it. The quote from the book is, there's something wrong with Hyde's appearance, Enfield says. I never saw a man I so disliked, and yet I scarce know why. He must be deformed somewhere. He gives a strong feeling of deformity, although I just can't specify the point.

04:33 Gregory And even though he said he wouldn't, Enfield divulges that the culprit's name was Hyde. And at this point, Utterson declares that he knows the man and notes that he can now guess the name on the check. But as the men have just been discussing the virtue of minding one's own business, they promptly agree never to discuss the matter again.

04:50 Frank Even as it plunges us into these mysterious happenings surrounding Mr. Hyde, this first chapter highlights the proper, respectable, eminently Victorian attitudes of Utterson and Enfield. The text describes these men as reserved. So reserved, as Elizabeth mentioned, that they can enjoy a lengthy walk during which neither man says a word. And so they steer away from discussing the matter of Hyde once they realize it involves someone that Utterson knows.

05:15 Elizabeth The Victorian value system largely respected reputation over reality. And so, in a society so focused on reputation, blackmail proves a particularly potent force, since those possessing and concerned with good reputations will do anything they can to preserve them.

05:34 Gregory So when Hyde tramples a little girl, Enfield and the crowd can blackmail him into paying off her family. Hyde's access to a respectable man's bank account leads Enfield to leap to the conclusion that Hyde is blackmailing his benefactor.

05:47 Elizabeth So they're blackmailing the blackmailer. In such a society, it is significant that Utterson, so respectable himself, is known for his willingness to remain friends with people whose reputations have been damaged or ruined.

06:01 Frank Good point. This aspect of his personality suggests not only a sense of charity, but also hints that Utterson is intrigued, maybe even attracted in some way, by the darker side of the world. The side that the truly respectable, like Enfield, carefully avoid. It is this curiosity on Utterson's part that leads him to investigate the peculiar figure of Mr. Hyde, rather than avoid looking into matters that could touch on scandal.

06:25 Gregory Utterson, prompted by his conversation with Enfield, goes home to study a will that he drew up for his close friend, Dr. Jekyll. It states that in the event of the death or disappearance of Jekyll, all his property should be given over immediately to a Mr. Edward Hyde.

06:39 Frank You know, this strange will has long troubled Utterson, but now that he has heard something of Hyde's behavior, he becomes more upset and feels convinced that Hyde has some peculiar power over Jekyll.

06:50 Elizabeth Seeking to unravel the mystery, he pays a visit to Dr. Lanyon, a friend of Jekyll's. But Lanyon has never heard of Hyde and has fallen out of communication with Jekyll as a result of a professional dispute. Lanyon refers to Jekyll's most recent line of research as unscientific balderdash.

07:09 Gregory Utterson begins to spend time around the rundown building where Enfield saw Hyde enter, in the hopes of catching a glimpse of him. Hyde, a small young man, finally appears and Utterson approaches him.

07:20 Elizabeth Utterson introduces himself as a friend of Dr. Henry Jekyll. Hyde, keeping his head down, returns his greetings. He asks Hyde to show him his face so that he will know him if he sees him again. Hyde complies, and like Enfield before him, Utterson feels appalled and horrified, yet cannot pinpoint exactly what makes Hyde so ugly.

07:42 Frank Hyde then offers Utterson his address, which the lawyer interprets as a sign that Hyde eagerly anticipates the death of Jekyll and the execution of his will.

07:51 Gregory After this encounter, Utterson pays a visit to Jekyll. At this point, we learn what Utterson himself has known all along. Namely, that the run-down building that Hyde frequents is actually a laboratory attached to Jekyll's well-kept townhouse, which faces outward on a parallel street.

08:07 Frank You know, the description of Jekyll's house introduces an element of symbolism into the novel. The doctor lives in a well-appointed home described by Stevenson as having a great air of wealth and comfort. But the building secretly connects to his laboratory, which faces out on another street and appears sinister and run down. It is in this laboratory that Dr. Jekyll becomes Mr. Hyde. Like the two secretly connected buildings seemingly having nothing to do with each other, but in fact easily traversed, The upstanding Jekyll and the corrupt Hyde appear separate, but in fact share an unseen inner connection. All right, Gregory, Elizabeth, with that start, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll continue our conversation and learn something about what's actually going on in the laboratory of Dr. Jekyll. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. All right, welcome back. Gregory, Elizabeth, when we left we had learned that the grand home of Dr. Jekyll was connected to a laboratory used by the mysterious and morally ugly Mr. Hyde. Elizabeth, you want to continue the conversation?

09:13 Elizabeth Utterson is admitted into Jekyll's home by Jekyll's butler, Mr. Poole, but Jekyll is not at home. Poole tells Utterson that Hyde has a key to the laboratory and that all the servants have orders to obey Hyde. The lawyer heads home, worrying about his friend. He assumes Hyde is blackmailing Jekyll, perhaps for some wrongdoing that Jekyll committed in his youth.

09:36 Gregory Two weeks later, Jekyll throws a well-attended dinner party. Utterson stays late so that the two men can speak privately. Utterson mentions the will, and Jekyll begins to make a joke about it. But he turns pale when Utterson tells him that he has been quote, learning something of young Hyde.

09:52 Elizabeth Jekyll explains that the situation with Hyde is exceptional and cannot be solved by talking. He also insists that the moment I choose, I can be rid of Mr. Hyde. But Jekyll emphasizes the great interest he currently takes in Hyde and his desire to continue to provide for him. He makes Utterson promise that he will carry out his will.

10:13 Frank The novel moves quickly, and approximately one year later, the scene opens on a maid who, sitting at her window in the wee hours of the morning, witnesses a murder take place in the street below. She sees a small, evil-looking man, whom she recognizes as Mr. Hyde, encounter a polite, aged gentleman. When the gentleman offers Hyde a greeting, Hyde suddenly turns on him with a stick, beating him to death.

10:35 Gregory The police find a letter addressed to Utterson on the dead body, and so they summon the lawyer. He identifies the body as Sir Danvers Carew, a popular member of Parliament and one of his clients.

10:45 Elizabeth Utterson still has Hyde's address, and he accompanies the police to a set of rooms located in a poor, evil-looking part of town. Utterson reflects on how odd it is that a man who lives in such squalor is the heir to Henry Jekyll's fortune.

11:02 Gregory Hyde's villainous-looking landlady lets the men in, but the suspected murderer is not at home. The police find the murder weapon and the burned remains of Hyde's checkbook. After a subsequent visit to the bank, the police inspector learns that Hyde still has an account there. The officer assumes that he needs only wait for Hyde to go and withdraw money.

11:20 Elizabeth In the days and weeks that follow, however, no sign of Hyde turns up. He has no family, no friends, and those who have seen him are unable to give accurate descriptions. They differ on details and agree only on the evil aspect of his appearance.

11:35 Gregory Eventually, Utterson calls on Jekyll, whom he finds in his laboratory looking deathly ill. Jekyll feverishly claims that Hyde has left and their relationship has ended. He also assures Utterson that the police shall never find the man.

11:48 Frank Jekyll then shows Utterson a letter and asks him what he should do with it, since he feels it could damage his reputation if he turns it over to the police. Again, we see another example of this fear of losing one's reputation.

11:59 Elizabeth The letter is from Hyde, assuring Jekyll that he has a means of escape, that Jekyll should not worry about him, and that he deems himself unworthy of Jekyll's great generosity. Utterson asks if Hyde dictated the terms of Jekyll's will, especially its insistence that Hyde inherit in the event of Jekyll's disappearance. Jekyll replies in the affirmative, and Utterson tells his friend that Hyde probably meant to murder him and that he has had a near escape. He takes the letter and departs.

12:29 Gregory On his way out, Utterson runs into Poole, the butler, and asks him to describe the man who delivered the letter. Poole, taken aback, claims to have no knowledge of any letters being delivered. That night, over drinks, Utterson consults his trusted clerk, Mr. Guest, who is an expert on handwriting. Of course he is.

12:47 Elizabeth Guest compares Hyde's letter with some of Jekyll's own writing and suggests that the same hand inscribed both. Hyde's script merely leans in the opposite direction, as if for the purpose of concealment. Utterson reacts with alarm at the thought that Jekyll would forge a letter for a murderer.

13:05 Frank And again, time passes in the novel, and with no sign of Hyde's reappearance, Jekyll becomes healthier looking and more sociable. To Utterson, it appears that the removal of Hyde's evil influence has had a tremendously positive effect on Jekyll.

13:18 Gregory After two months of this placid lifestyle, Jekyll holds a dinner party, which both Utterson and Dr. Lanyon attend, and the three talk together as old friends. But a few days later, when Utterson calls on Jekyll, Poole reports that his master is receiving no visitors.

13:32 Elizabeth This scenario repeats itself for a week. So Utterson goes to visit Lanyon, hoping to learn why Jekyll has refused any company. He finds Lanyon in very poor health, pale and sickly, with a frightened look in his eyes. Lanyon explains that he has had a great shock and expects to die in a few weeks. Life has been pleasant, he says. I liked it. Yes, sir, I used to like it. Then he adds, I sometimes think if we knew all, we should be more glad to get away.

14:02 Gregory When Utterson mentions that Jekyll also seems ill, Lanyon violently demands that they talk of anything but Jekyll. He promises that after his death, Utterson may learn the truth about everything, but for now he will not discuss it.

14:14 Frank Afterward, at home, Utterson writes to Jekyll, talking about being turned away from Jekyll's house and inquiring as to what caused a break between him and Lanyon.

14:21 Elizabeth Soon, Jekyll's written reply arrives, explaining that while he still cares for Lanyon, he understands why the Doctor says they must not meet. As for Jekyll himself, he pledges his continued affection for Utterson, but adds that from now on he will be maintaining a strict seclusion, seeing no one. He says that he is suffering a punishment that he cannot name.

14:45 Frank And Lanyon dies a few weeks later, fulfilling his own prophecy.

14:48 Gregory After the funeral, Utterson takes from his safe a letter that Lanyon meant for him to read after he died. Inside, Utterson finds only another envelope, marked to remain sealed until Jekyll has also died. Out of professional principle, Utterson overcomes his curiosity and puts the envelope away for safekeeping. As weeks pass, he calls on Jekyll less and less frequently, and the butler continues to refuse him entry.

15:09 Elizabeth One Sunday, while Utterson and Enfield are taking their regular stroll, they pass the door where Enfield once saw Hyde enter to retrieve Jekyll's check, and Enfield remarks on the Carew murder case. He notes that the story that began with the trampling of a little girl has reached an end, as London will never again see Mr. Hyde.

15:29 Gregory To their surprise, the two men find Jekyll at the window, enjoying the fresh air. Jekyll complains that he feels very low, and Utterson suggests that he join them for a walk. Jekyll refuses, saying he cannot go out. Then, just as they resume polite conversation, a look of terror seizes his face, and he quickly shuts the window and vanishes. Utterson and Enfield depart in shocked silence.

15:51 Elizabeth Jekyll's butler, Poole, visits Utterson one night after dinner. Deeply agitated, he says only that he believes there has been some foul play regarding Dr. Jekyll. He quickly brings Utterson to his master's residence.

16:05 Gregory Poole brings Utterson to the door of Jekyll's laboratory and calls inside, saying that Utterson has come for a visit. A strange voice responds, sounding nothing like that of Jekyll. The owner of the voice tells Poole that he can receive no visitors.

16:17 Elizabeth Poole and Utterson retreat to the kitchen, where Poole insists that the voice they heard coming from the laboratory does not belong to his master. Utterson wonders why the murderer would remain in the laboratory if he had just killed Jekyll.

16:32 Gregory Poole describes how the mystery voice has sent him on constant errands to chemists. The man in the laboratory seems desperate for some ingredient that no drugstore in London sells.

16:41 Elizabeth Utterson suggests that Jekyll may have some disease that changes his voice and deforms his features, making them unrecognizable. But Poole declares that the person he saw was smaller than his master, and looked in fact like none other than Mr. Hyde.

16:58 Frank You know, despite mounting evidence to the contrary, Utterson remains a steadfast rationalist and a fundamentally unimaginative man without a superstitious bone in his body. One of the central themes of the novel is the clash between Victorian rationalism and the supernatural, and Utterson is the embodiment of this rationality, always searching out the logical explanation for events and deliberately dismissing any supernatural flights of fancy.

17:23 Gregory Hearing Poole's words, Utterson resolves that he and Poole should break into the laboratory. He sends two servants around the back of the laboratory's other door, the one that Enfield sees Hyde using at the beginning of the novel.

17:34 Frank All right, Elizabeth Gregory, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll continue our story and find out what happens when Utterson and Poole break into Jekyll's laboratory. We'll be right back. And we're back. All right, when we left, after hearing the voice of Hyde and not Jekyll, Utterson and Poole were about to break down the laboratory door.

17:58 Elizabeth Armed with a fireplace poker and an axe, Utterson and Poole return to the door. Utterson calls inside, demanding admittance. The voice begs for Utterson to have mercy and to leave him alone. The lawyer, however, recognizes the voice as Hyde's and orders Poole to smash down the door.

18:16 Gregory Once inside, the men find Hyde's body lying on the floor, a crushed vial in his hand. He appears to have poisoned himself. Utterson notes that Hyde is wearing a suit that belongs to Jekyll and that is much too large for him. The men search the entire laboratory as well as the other rooms in the building, but they find neither a trace of Jekyll nor a corpse.

18:35 Frank They note a large mirror and think it's strange to find such an item in a scientific laboratory. Then, on Jekyll's business table, they find a large envelope addressed to Utterson that contains three items. The first is a will, much like the previous one, except that it replaces Hyde's name with Utterson's. The second is a note to Utterson with the present day's date on it. Based on this piece of evidence, Utterson surmises that Jekyll is still alive, and he wonders if Hyde really died by suicide or if Jekyll killed him.

19:04 Elizabeth This note instructs Utterson to go home immediately and read the letter that Lanyon gave him earlier. It adds that if he desires to learn more, Utterson can read the confession of your worthy and unhappy friend, Henry Jekyll. Utterson takes the third item from the envelope, a sealed packet, and promises Poole that he will return that night and send for the police. He then heads back to his office to read Lanyon's letter and the contents of the sealed packet.

19:31 Frank Chapter 9 constitutes a word-for-word transcription of the letter Lanyon intended Utterson to open after Lanyon's and Jekyll's death. Lanyon writes that after Jekyll's last dinner party, he received a strange letter from Jekyll. The letter asked Lanyon to go to Jekyll's home and, with the help of Poole, break into the upper room of Jekyll's laboratory.

19:51 Gregory The letter instructed Lanyon to remove a specific drawer and all its contents from the laboratory, return with this drawer to his own home, and wait for a man who would come to claim it precisely at midnight. The letter seemed to Lanyon to have been written in a mood of desperation. It offered no explanation for the orders it gave, but promised Lanyon that if he did as it bade, he would soon understand everything.

20:12 Elizabeth Lanyon duly went to Jekyll's home, where Poole and a locksmith met him. The locksmith broke into the lab, and Lanyon returned home with the drawer. Within the drawer, Lanyon found several vials, one containing what seemed to be salt and another holding a peculiar red liquid.

20:29 Gregory The drawer also contained a notebook recording what seemed to be years of experiments, with little notations such as double or total failure, scattered amid a long list of dates. However, the notebook offered no hints as to what the experiments involved.

20:42 Elizabeth Lanyon waited for his visitor, increasingly certain that Jekyll must be insane. As promised at the stroke of midnight, a small, evil-looking man appeared, dressed in clothes much too large for him. It was, of course, Mr. Hyde, but never having seen the man before, Lanyon did not recognize him. Hyde seemed nervous and excited. He avoided polite conversation, interested only in the contents of the drawer.

21:08 Gregory Lanyon directed him to it, and Hyde then asked for a graduated glass. In it, he mixed the ingredients from the drawer to form a purple liquid, which then became green. Hyde paused and asked Lanyon whether he should leave and take the glass with him, or whether he should stay and drink it in front of Lanyon, allowing the doctor to witness something that he claimed would stagger the unbelief of Satan. Lanyon, irritated, declared that he had already become so involved in the matter that he wanted to see the end of it.

21:35 Elizabeth Taking up the glass, Hyde told Lanyon that his skepticism of transcendental medicine would now be disproved. Before Lanyon's eyes, the deformed man drank the glass in one gulp and then seemed to swell, his body expanding, his face melting and shifting, until, shockingly, Hyde was gone and Dr. Jekyll stood in his place. Lanyon here ends his letter stating that what Jekyll told him afterward is too shocking to repeat, and that the horror of the event has so wrecked his constitution that he will soon die. That was a very Victorian phrase.

22:13 Frank Wrecked his constitution. This chapter finally makes explicit the nature of Dr. Jekyll's relationship to his darker half, Mr. Hyde. The men are, in fact, one and the same person.

22:25 Gregory Chapter 10, the final chapter, offers a transcription of the letter Jekyll leaves for Utterson in the laboratory. The confession of your worthy and unhappy friend, Henry Jekyll.

22:35 Frank Jekyll writes that upon his birth, he possessed a large inheritance, a healthy body, and a hardworking, decent nature.

22:42 Elizabeth His idealism allowed him to maintain a respectable seriousness in public, while hiding his more frivolous and indecent side. By the time he was fully grown, he found himself leading a dual life, in which his better side constantly felt guilt for the transgressions of his darker side.

23:01 Frank I wonder what Jekyll considered the transgressions of his darker side.

23:06 Gregory When his scientific interest led to mystical studies as to the divided nature of man, he hoped to find some solution to his own split in nature. Jekyll insists that man is not truly one, but truly two. And he records how he dreamed of separating the good and evil natures.

23:22 Elizabeth Jekyll reports that after much research, he eventually found a chemical solution that might serve his purposes. Buying a large quantity of salt as his last ingredient, he took the potion with the knowledge that he was risking his life, but he remained driven by the hopes of making a great discovery.

23:41 Gregory At first, he experienced incredible pain and nausea, but as these symptoms subsided, he felt vigorous and filled with recklessness and sensuality. He had become the shrunken, deformed Mr. Hyde. He hypothesizes that Hyde's small stature owed to the fact that this persona represented his evil side alone, which up to that point had been repressed.

24:02 Elizabeth Upon first looking into a mirror after the transformation, Jekyll turned Hyde was not repulsed by his new form. Instead, he experienced a leap of welcome. He came to delight in living as Hyde. Jekyll was becoming too old to act upon his more embarrassing impulses, but Hyde was a younger man, the personification of the evil side.

24:24 Gregory Transforming himself into Hyde became a welcome outlet for Jekyll's passions. Jekyll furnished a home and set up a bank account for his alter ego, and soon sunk into utter degradation. But each time he transformed back into Jekyll, he felt no guilt at Hyde's dark exploits, though he did try to right whatever wrongs he had done.

24:43 Elizabeth It was not until two months before the Carew murder that Jekyll found cause for concern. While asleep one night, he involuntarily transformed into Hyde without the help of the potion and awoke in the body of his darker half. This incident convinced him that he must cease with his transformations or risk being trapped in Hyde's form forever.

25:06 Frank But after two months as Jekyll, he caved in and took the potion again. Hyde, so long repressed, emerged wild and vengefully savage, and it was in this mood that he beat Karrueh to death, delighting in the crime. Hyde showed no remorse for the murder, but Jekyll knelt and prayed to God for forgiveness, even before his transformation back was complete.

25:26 Gregory The horrifying nature of the murder convinced Jekyll never to transform himself again. And it was during the subsequent months that Utterson and others remarked that Jekyll seemed to have had a weight lifted from his shoulders, and that everything seemed well with him.

25:38 Elizabeth Eventually, though, Jekyll grew weary of constant virtue and indulged some of his darker desires, in his own person, not that of Hyde. But this dip into darkness proved sufficient to cause another spontaneous transformation into Hyde, which took place one day when Jekyll was sitting in a park, far from home.

25:58 Gregory As Hyde, he immediately felt brave and powerful, but he also knew that the police would seize him for his murder of Carew. He could not even return to his rooms to get his potions without a great risk of being captured.

26:09 Frank And it was then that he sent word to Lanyon to break into his laboratory and get the potions for him.

26:14 Elizabeth After that night, he had to take a double dose of the potion every six hours to avoid spontaneous transformation into Hyde. As soon as the drug began to wear off, the transformation process would begin. It was one of these spells that struck him as he spoke to Enfield and Utterson out the window, forcing him to withdraw.

26:34 Gregory In his last desperate hours, Hyde grew stronger as Jekyll grew weaker. Moreover, the salt necessary for the potion began to run out. Jekyll ordered more, only to discover that the mineral did not have the same effect. He realized that the original salt must have contained an impurity that made the potion work.

26:51 Elizabeth Jekyll then anticipated the fast approach of the moment when he must become Hyde permanently. He thus used the last of the potion to buy himself time, during which to compose this final letter. Jekyll writes that he does not know whether, when faced with discovery, Hyde will kill himself or be arrested and hanged. But he knows that by the time Utterson reads this letter, Henry Jekyll will be no more.

27:17 Gregory At this point, all the mysteries of the novel unravel, as we get this second account of the same events that have been unfolding throughout the novel. Only this time, instead of seeing them from the point of view of Utterson, we see them from the point of view of Jekyll, and by extension, that of Hyde.

27:31 Frank This shift in point of view makes a great difference indeed. All of the events that seem puzzling or inexplicable to us before are suddenly explained.

27:40 Elizabeth Jekyll's confession makes everything clear. The will that left everything to Hyde, the events leading up to the brutal murder of Karrueh, it clarifies the mystery of the similarity between Jekyll and Hyde's handwritings, and why Jekyll seemed to improve dramatically after Karrueh's murder, and why he abruptly went into a decline and was forced into seclusion.

28:02 Gregory We know, finally, the details behind Hyde's midnight visit to Lanyon and Jekyll's bizarre disappearance from the window while talking to Enfield and Utterson. So, too, is Jekyll's final disappearance explained.

28:13 Frank You know, it's as if there have been two parallel narratives throughout the novel, and we have, until now, really been given access only to one. Note, though, that in his confession, Jekyll refuses to give any description of his youthful sins, and he does not actually elaborate on any of the depravity, except, of course, the murder of Carew, in which Hyde engages. Perhaps these deeds are so depraved that they defy all attempts at true explanation, or perhaps our author Stevenson fears that to describe them explicitly would be to destroy their eerie power. But with Jekyll's confession, everything falls into place, and it does bring our story to its conclusion.

28:49 Elizabeth And maybe Jekyll had told some of those depraved deeds to Lanyon, and that's why Lanyon was so upset.

28:57 Frank Right. And why Lanyon wouldn't finish the letter that he wrote for Utterson. He said, I can't go into anything further of what Jekyll told me. Great point. All right, Elizabeth Gregory, great conversation, but now let's take a final break and then head into the last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about. Right now, you're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lovallo, and we'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lovallo, and today I've had a conversation about the novel The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by Robert Louis Stevenson. All right, Elizabeth Gregory, before our break, we ended our story, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote that we really haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

29:56 Elizabeth I found it interesting that when Henry Jekyll was telling his confession, he refused to take responsibility for Hyde. He always thought of Hyde as another entity. And he didn't say, I did those things. He said, Hyde did those things. and I refused to call that myself. Which, granted, he wasn't fully in control of himself, but he chose to take that potion. He came up with that potion in the first place, and he chose to take that potion multiple times.

30:30 Frank And he certainly knew what actions he took while as Mr. High.

30:34 Elizabeth Exactly. He still had that memory, and he still chose to continue taking the potion over and over again.

30:40 Frank He sort of blamed my dark side. That's my other side. That's not me.

30:45 Gregory He also tries to just, not justify it, but say like, well, I even tried to repair some of the things that Hyde did. So it's okay.

30:55 Frank Right. I dropped a few dollars by the girl's body. Right.

31:00 Elizabeth I mean, it could be kind of an allegory for being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, whereas like, maybe you're not so much in control of your actions, but you still chose to

31:13 Gregory That's how I read it mostly.

31:14 Frank And you would still be responsible for whatever those actions were, even if they occurred under the influence.

31:19 Elizabeth Exactly.

31:20 Gregory And the pull of addiction, yeah. Gregory, you have something to share? Yeah, I was actually surprised. We talked about whether—I mean, everybody knows the story. Like, the surprise was not a surprise. So knowing that, it seemed to drag, and I wish I had I wish it had been much more from Jekyll and Hyde's perspective the whole time. Like I feel like this 106 pages should have been a 30-page lead into a much more interesting story. But I was surprised because I always pictured him as like the Babadook, you know? Hyde is like this big, massive. And then they kept describing him as a small man. But then even right in the beginning, they described him, it wasn't like a man, it was like some damned juggernaut. And that made me think, well, then he's this massive creature, but he's just this little creepy little man.

32:10 Frank But he's a young man, he's a vital man. That was the attraction for Jekyll, to create a younger version of himself, if you will. And Stevenson does mention in the novel that the reason that we see Hyde as smaller than some of the other men is because as an evil side, he'd been repressed by Jekyll for so long, he hasn't quite achieved his growth yet.

32:34 Elizabeth I was thinking, though, about what it would be like to read this story as somebody who didn't have the spoiler.

32:40 Gregory I kept trying to put myself in that, yeah.

32:42 Frank Hard, right? As I mentioned at the beginning, it's one of the most well-known endings of a novel. Everyone knows what happens. Everyone knows who Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde are. You know, the parts of the novel that I found most interesting were those that dwelt with the idea of two sides of man, the good and the evil, and the reputable and the depraved. During the story, Utterson describes dreams, nightmares actually, that he has of Hyde. Hyde appears ubiquitous, permeating the city with his dark nature and his crimes. This idea of Hyde as a universal presence suggests that this faceless figure symbolizes, I don't know, all the secret sins that lurk beneath the surface of respectable London or respectable men. This notion of hidden crimes recurs throughout the novel, and Jekyll's meditations on the dual nature of man, which prompts us four ways into the experiments that bring forth Hyde, point to the novel's central question about the nature of the relationship between the good and evil portions of the human soul. All right, what a great way to end our conversation today about The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by Robert Louis Stevenson. Elizabeth Graver, I do want to thank both of you for coming in and having this conversation with me today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Yeah, it was great.

33:54 Elizabeth Thank you. Thank you, Frank.

33:56 Frank I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.