A Front-Row Seat with the Sportswriters Who Sat There
Sit down with host Todd Jones and other sportswriters who knew the greatest athletes and coaches, and experienced first-hand some of the biggest sports moments in the past 50 years. They’ll share stories behind the stories -- some they’ve only told to each other.
Terence Moore: “I Literally Ran into Woody Hayes.”

Terence Moore joins us again to share more stories from his 45 years as a ground-breaking and award-winning sports journalist. He takes us behind the scenes of his encounters with Paul Brown, Woody Hayes, Ara Parseghian, John McVay, Walter Alston and other legends who are featured in Moore’s new book, “Red Brick Magic: Sean McVay, John Harbaugh and Miami University's Cradle of Coaches."
This is Moore’s second appearance on Press Box Access. Check out his first episode with us from Aug. 18, 2021 when Terence discussed challenges that he faced in breaking down racial barriers in sports media, being a pallbearer at Hank Aaron’s funeral, covering the epic Marvin Hagler-Thomas Hearns brawl, watching Billy Martin trash his office, and more. You can listen to that first episode here:
Moore has covered 30 Super Bowls, numerous World Series and NBA Finals games, Final Fours, several Indianapolis 500, Daytona 500 and other auto races, major prize fights and golf tournaments, college football bowl games and more. In 1999, he was honored by the National Association of Black Journalists for ranking as the longest-running black sports columnist in the history of major newspapers.
Terence currently works as a national columnist for Forbes.com, writes opinion pieces for CNN.com, and is a contributor to ESPN.com, MLB.com and MSNBC.com. He also does work for the NFL Network, has a YouTube channel called Atlanta Sports Unlimited, and makes TV appearances every week on Sports Zone Sunday for the local ABC affiliate in Atlanta, the most-watched ABC affiliate in the country. That’s the city’s top-rated sports show. His national TV appearances include a guest spot on The Oprah Winfrey Show, regular commentaries on CNN-SI, and five years as a panelist on ESPN’s Rome is Burning.
Terence spent 25 years as a general sports columnist for the Atlanta-Journal Constitution before becoming a national sports columnist for AOL Sports in 2009. He later served as a national columnist for SportsonEarth.com.
Before moving to Atlanta in January 1985, Terence spent five years as a reporter at the San Francisco Examiner, where he covered the San Francisco Giants, the Oakland Raiders, the Oakland Athletics and the San Francisco 49ers. That followed three years as a sports reporter at the Cincinnati Enquirer, which hired him eight days after he graduated from Miami (Ohio) University in 1978.
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Terence Moore 2nd episode transcript edited
TERENCE MOORE 2nd episode
Speakers: Todd Jones & Terrance Moore
Todd Jones (00:12):
Hey, Terrance, great to have you back on Press Box Access. Welcome.
Terrance Moore (00:18):
Hey, I remember the last time I was here. It was so great. I know this will be as great. Probably greater.
Todd Jones (00:27):
We set a high bar, Terrance. We had a lot of fun last time we talked, and it was so much fun a couple years ago going through your career. What a career, I mean, dating back to the late '70s. We had some great stories.
Todd Jones (00:39):
And as usual since we last spoke, you've been keeping very busy down there in Atlanta, still writing, offering analysis on TV and radio, cranking out books. Last year, you had a book on Hank Aaron. The Real Hank Aaron, it's called.
Todd Jones (00:53):
And now, you've got another new book out, Red Brick Magic about all the great amazing coaches and managers and sports executives that came out of Miami University. As you like to say, the real Miami in Oxford, Ohio. Not the U.
Todd Jones (01:09):
So, I think it's going to be cool to talk about a lot of characters in those books because I think what they'll show is your experiences with them in the last 45 years or just great examples of what it was like to be a sportswriter, especially in the days when we had much better access to the subjects.
Todd Jones (01:29):
So, let's dig into the book about Miami University. I know it was a labor of love for you. Tell us about your proud time at Miami as a graduate, 1978.
Terrance Moore (01:44):
Yeah, you know what, Todd, I was destined to write this book for so many reasons. And let's just kind of go backwards in the last oh geez, say the last 45 years. Of course, I'm a graduate of Miami of Ohio. I went there from 1974 to 1978.
Terrance Moore (01:59):
And then later after that, I joined the alumni board. So, I was a member of the alumni board for six years. And then on top of that, I taught there as a visiting professor for seven years. So, I think I'm qualified to talk about Miami of Ohio for a whole lot of reasons.
Terrance Moore (02:18):
But the other thing is, being a spiritual person, there's no such thing as coincidence. And there's so many moments in my life, even before I went to Miami, and certainly during the time I was at Miami, and definitely the time that I was after being at Miami, that made me the definitive person to write this book about just an incredible story of all these coaches and administrators and just sports personalities in general come from this little college in southwestern Ohio that hardly anybody knows about, yet everybody knows about.
Todd Jones (02:54):
Yeah, let's think of the names here. Paul Brown, Woody Hayes, Bo Schembechler, Ara Parseghian, Weeb Ewbank, John Harbaugh, Sean McVay, his grandfather, John McVay, who built the Niners Great teams in the '80s and '90s. Wayne Embry, Walter Alston, on and on. There's so many of them.
Todd Jones (03:11):
And again, I think you got to know a lot of these guys during your career because I think your ties to Miami opened some doors for you, right?
Terrance Moore (03:20):
Well, it really did. And you left out a lot of them because there's so many to mention.
Todd Jones (07:45):
Well, let's go back to your days at Miami, and we'll start there because really it launched your career.
Todd Jones (08:00):
So, you're a student at Miami University, and you're the sports editor of the student newspaper in 1978, and you're in Indianapolis at Market Square Arena for the first round of the NCA tournament.
Todd Jones (08:12):
It's defending national champion Marquette playing Miami, and you're the student newspaper reporter and you're there, you're the sports editor.
So, your first real significant time experience as a sportswriter involves Miami. What happened that day?
Terrance Moore (08:47):
Well, I'm glad you asked, and I'm getting chills right now. Todd, I wasn't a math major, but what was that? It was many years later now, and I'm still getting chills over what I'm about to tell you.
Terrance Moore (08:58):
At the time, my father was AT&T supervisor, so he got transferred around the Midwest. Born and raised in South Bend, Indiana, home of the University of Notre Dame. Then we got transferred to Cincinnati and then to Chicago.
Terrance Moore (09:09):
But I finished my last couple years in high school in Milwaukee. So, I was very familiar with Marquette and also, very familiar with Hank Aaron … Hank Raymonds rather. I was also, Hank Aaron. That's another story.
Terrance Moore (09:21):
But Hank Raymonds was the Marquette coach who had taken over for the legendary Al McGuire. And it turns out I encountered Hank Raymonds several times in Milwaukee just walking around.
Terrance Moore (09:31):
So, getting to that particular game. It's March 11th, 1978. The game was at 11:30 in the morning. Can you believe that, Todd? And they put in-
Todd Jones (09:44):
Well, what I can't believe is that sports writers were able to get up that early.
Terrance Moore (09:47):
Yeah, right. But I mean, this is to say, the NCAA wanted to get that game over with because it's going to be a blowout. And they were looking forward to Marquette playing number one main Kentucky in the second round. And Marquette was rank number two, three at the time. About 10 minutes before the game, I'm walking behind a Marquette bench and Hank Raymonds, the Marquette coach, sees me and recognized me, says, "Hey, how's it going?" And I told him, I said "I'm a student at Miami of Ohio."
Terrance Moore (10:20):
And then he just gets this kind of like this sort of like sad look on his face. And he taps me on the shoulder and he says, "They've got a nice little team." That was before the game.
Todd Jones (10:32):
Nice little team. Oh yeah. That went over well.
Terrance Moore (10:36):
That's exactly right. And of course, we know what happened later. Miami upsets them in overtime. And at the time, Sports Illustrated called it the greatest upset in history of the NCAA tournament because Miami was such an underdog.
Terrance Moore (10:48):
Jimmy, the Greek Snyder was a big oddsmaker at the time. There were 32 teams in the NCAA tournament back then. He gave odds for every single team on winning the national championship except for one, Miami of Ohio. That just tells you how big of an upset that was.
Todd Jones (11:05):
What did that day feel like for a kid trying to learn how to become a reporter? What did it feel like to experience that? And how did that affect you as you went forward and became a full-time journalist?
Terrance Moore (11:19):
And that's an excellent question because. And I must say Miami prior to that, kind of prepared me for that moment because of the great success of that football program. Again, 32 one to one hadn't beaten Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and Bowl games, beating Purdue a couple of times. Beating Indiana, beating Kentucky.
Terrance Moore (11:38):
So, I was used to being in these big moments, but you can't get bigger than that. I mean, again, Marquette, the defending national champions, four returning starters. Butch Lee, who was the player of the year, and little minor ... I mean, it was-
Todd Jones (11:54):
Yeah. 84, 81 was the final. And like you said, Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead, defending national champions.
Terrance Moore (12:00):
It was amazing. And Todd, one of the things for us being sports journalists, you remember moments that may not have anything to do with what took place on the court of the field or the diamond. I'm going to tell you one of my most unforgettable moments came from that game.
Terrance Moore (12:15):
So, Miami of Ohio, they win the game. And back in those days, we were right on court side. Now, not so much. But anyway, right on court side, and to the right of me is the Marquette pep band. The game ends and-
Todd Jones (12:33):
So, you got a hoard in your ear at all times in a [crosstalk 00:12:35].
Terrance Moore (12:36):
Exactly right. The game ends, and a young lady in the pep band just stands up and just passes out on the court.
Terrance Moore (12:43):
And to me, the loss of her Marquette warriors, they were the Warriors at the time, to little Miami of Ohio, was this too much for her to take? I don't know if that's true or not, but that's my story, and I'm sick of to it.
Terrance Moore (13:12):
And then one other quick story about that is years later, I want to say 15, 20 years later, and this is also in the book. And it was after Al McGuire died, this legendary head coach, and I'm working at the Land General constitution, and I'm writing a story about Al McGuire.
Terrance Moore (13:28):
So, I said, you know what, let me call Hank Raymonds, who was Al's assistant for so many years before he became head coach to find out what he thought about Al.
Terrance Moore (13:39):
So, I call up Hank, and we're talking, and then he just stops in mid-sentence and he says, "Yeah, you went to Miami." And he just went on this rant for about 10 minutes about that game and about a particular call he didn't like.
Terrance Moore (13:53):
And he was saying that, "I'll never forgive the official for making that call." All these decades later that was still bothering him.
Todd Jones (14:01):
Yeah. They always remembered the losses.
Todd Jones (14:02):
Well, a few months later you're working at The Cincinnati Enquirer as a young reporter, you get hired right out of school and you've got this experience with that great football team that Miami had in the '70s, and this big basketball upset.
Todd Jones (14:19):
So, you go into journalism, and they immediately just put you right to work. They told you at one point early on, "Hey, go find Walter Alston."
Terrance Moore (14:30):
That's right.
Todd Jones (14:30):
And let me set the stage with this one because Walter Alston, he was before Tommy Lasorda. Walter Alston, he was the manager of the Dodgers for 23 years, going back to the days of Jackie Robinson. And Walter was in his second year retirement, and he lived in Darrtown, Ohio, which was just outside of Oxford.
Todd Jones (14:50):
You're a young reporter, and they say, "Go find Walter." What happened?
Terrance Moore (14:58):
Yeah. And here's the other thing too. Walter Alston, a Miami of Ohio graduate, another guy that was part of the Cradle of Coaches. And Walter Alston, his nickname was Smokey, but it could also have been silent. Just a very withdrawn guy.
Terrance Moore (15:11):
And it was just so amazing to me how this guy was such an effective manager when he was noted for not really saying much. I mean, just a quiet guy.
Terrance Moore (15:20):
He wasn't dismissive of the media, but he wasn't exactly giddy. You know what he was, Todd, I just thought about this, this popped in my head. He was the anti Tommy Lasorda. That's what he was.
Terrance Moore (15:32):
But anyway, so, it's my second year at The Cincinnati Enquirer. They said, "Hey, could you see if you can track down Walter Alston to see if he can talk."
Terrance Moore (15:44):
Now, even then, as a young reporter, I know Walter Alston's reputation, and I'm like, "Okay. Yeah, right. I mean, you're giving it to the young reporter to do this, right?"
Todd Jones (15:52):
Oh, yeah. Let's get Terrance to do it.
Terrance Moore (15:54):
Get Mikey to do it. He don’t need anything. Actually, this was my first year at Cincinnati Enquirer. So, like a dumb reporter, I figured, I just looked in the phone directory. And my goodness, he was listed in the phone directory. And that taught me a lesson that a lot of these guys back then, not so much now, they were listed.
Terrance Moore (16:15):
So, I just called this number Walter Alston, Darrtown, he answers the phone. And so, I'm thinking to myself, "I need to get this guy immediately."
Terrance Moore (16:26):
So, the thing I thought of doing, and it was a trick that I used for the rest of my life. I said, "Mr. Alston, this is Terrance Moore at Enquirer. I graduated from Miami of Ohio."
That was a trick I learned for the rest of my life.
Todd Jones (16:47):
That was like your pass key. You could get in any door with that.
Terrance Moore (16:50):
That was it. And I said that, “I want to know if I could talk to you about retirement, blah, blah, blah. What would be a good time to talk to you?” And he said something like, "Well, you can come by after dinner." I'm like, "I didn't expect that he was going to invite me over to the house." So, he was like, "Come on over."
Terrance Moore (17:08):
That, Todd, was one of my all-time favorite interviews. I spent time an entire-
Todd Jones (17:12):
Why is that, Terrance?
Terrance Moore (17:14):
Well, for one, he's a hard guy to get and you don't expect to have Walter Alston to invite you over to his house. That's one.
Terrance Moore (17:23):
Number two, when I got there, he was so fascinating. There was so many aspects of this man. I mean, he was like a wood smith. He liked to work on things with his hands. He liked riding motorcycles.
Todd Jones (17:40):
Really?
Terrance Moore (17:40):
He told me about this, yes.
Todd Jones (17:42):
I can't picture that. A guy with four World Series rings who doesn't like to talk, but he loves motorcycles.
Terrance Moore (17:47):
Exactly. And this point, he is in his late 60s. One of his biggest vices though, he was like a chain smoker. He was smoking Lucky Strikes like crazy.
Terrance Moore (17:58):
And the thing was, he was introducing me to his wife, to his mother-in-law who lived with them. And they would offer me donuts and coffee. And it was just like this family that was just like a grandparents at that point for me.
Terrance Moore (18:15):
And he is showing me his backyard, where when the Dodgers used to come to town to play the Cincinnati Reds, he would often have gatherings at his house. Darrtown is approximately three, seven miles from Cincinnati.
Terrance Moore (18:29):
So, all those guys, Maury Wills, Sandy Koufax. They would just come out to this little country town to-
Todd Jones (18:35):
Have a little cookout in the backyard.
Terrance Moore (18:37):
Yeah, a cookout. And his wife and his mother-in-law did all the cooking, and that sort of thing.
Terrance Moore (18:42):
That was all great, but the one thing that I would cherish for the rest of my life, it was a Monday in May or June, something like that. I spent part of that evening in the living room with Walter Alston sitting in his easy chair watching Monday Night Baseball.
Terrance Moore (19:03):
And I'm thinking to myself at the time, "How many people get this opportunity? I'm here with this hall of fame manager, I'd say 23 years as a dodger. He managed Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale. And just he and I sitting in his living room watching Monday Night Baseball." It was surrealistic.
Todd Jones (19:25):
Was he questioning moves? This was only two years after he was in the dugout.
Terrance Moore (19:29):
Well, you can tell he was. Like for instance, there were times, it was early on during that session, Todd, when I wanted to ask him a question, and I just looked at his face and I could tell he was digesting what was going on in the game like he was out on the field. So, I didn't want to disturb the moment. It's sort of like that.
Terrance Moore (19:49):
But that was one of many, many, many, many, many, many fascinating encounters I had with what is called the Cradle of Coaches.
Todd Jones (20:00):
Well, let's go to another one. About a year later, you get sent up to Columbus. And I love your curiosity, Terrance, that's what's made you such a great reporter and writer. You go up there to interview Tom Cousineau, who was an Ohio State linebacker, who had just been selected number one overall in the NFL draft for the Buffalo Bills. This is 1979, I believe.
Terrance Moore (20:22):
'79, Yes.
Todd Jones (20:23):
And so, it's about five months after Woody Hayes had been fired as a Ohio State coach. So, you go up there to do a story about Cousineau, but you decide to be curious. What happened then?
Terrance Moore (20:39):
Yeah. Well, I was getting ready to drive back to Cincinnati, and this is the way I thought back then. And actually now, as a matter of fact. It was like, “well, since I'm in Columbus, what else can I do?”
Terrance Moore (20:50):
And I started thinking, "Well, Woody Hayes." I mean, Woody Hayes had punched the Clemson player in the Gator Bowl in 1978.
Todd Jones (20:58):
Five months earlier, right?
Terrance Moore (20:59):
Five months earlier, and just disappeared. Nobody heard from Woody Hayes. He would pop up from time to time at different functions around Columbus, but for the most part, he had not talked to any media person whatsoever, because he was in exile.
Terrance Moore (21:12):
So, I thought, "Well, maybe if I could do a fun column or story or feature story on trying to find Woody Hayes. Not think I would find him just a story just kind of humorous thing." So, I'm asking various people, "Have you seen him? Have you seen him?" And of course, nobody's seen Woody Hayes.
Terrance Moore (21:30):
So, I'm on the verge of going back to Cincinnati, and the very last person I talked to before I'm getting ready to go down 71 from Columbus, Cincinnati, is this young, female student. And I said, "Hey, would you have any idea where Woody Hayes is?"
Terrance Moore (21:47):
She's trying to pause, she says, “I heard he's got an office in the Naval Science building." And I'm thinking, "Okay." And I was just kind of was going to dismiss it, but I said, “Hmm, let me go check it out. Could be part of the, the fun story.”
Terrance Moore (22:02):
So, I'm walking up the steps to like the second or third floor, and I open the door, and, Todd, I literally run into Woody Hayes, almost knocked the man over. And for anybody who don't know, Woody Hayes had a very volatile personality.
Todd Jones (22:20):
No. Are you serious?
Terrance Moore (22:22):
So, I'm thinking, “Oh my goodness, I'm going to get punched out here. I'm going to be on the front page of the papers everywhere.” And I said, "Oh, Coach Hayes, I apologize, blah, blah, blah." And he says, "Oh, no, son, I want to apologize for knocking you over."
Terrance Moore (22:36):
And then he asked my name, and I'm like really nervous. And even though I go by Terrance Moore in headlines and what have you, but my people call me Terry Moore. So, I just said, "Terry Moore."
Terrance Moore (22:48):
So, he says, "Oh, Terry Moore, you are the old centerfielder for the St. Louis Cardinals." I had no idea what he was talking about, but there was a great centerfielder for the St. Louis Cardinals Hall of Famer.
Todd Jones (23:01):
Woody was a big baseball fan. He knew his baseball. Yeah.
Terrance Moore (23:04):
He really did. So, we're talking a few minutes about that.
Terrance Moore (23:06):
So, one of the things that I believe in, like I tell my students, I believe in true transparency. So, I just said, "Coach, I need to be honest with you. I want to know if I could talk to you for five minutes, but I need to tell you that I'm a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer."
Terrance Moore (23:23):
And he got this look on his face, and I thought he was going to give me like a right hook or something. And then he looks at his watch, he says, "You asked for five minutes. I'll give you five minutes."
Todd Jones (23:33):
You should asked for two hours, Terrance.
Terrance Moore (23:35):
That's exactly right. Todd, he gave me exactly five minutes. But it was the greatest five minutes I could think of.
Terrance Moore (23:43):
And at the end, I said those magic words again, "Hey, I'm from Miami, Ohio, blah, blah, blah." And when he heard that, his eyes just lit up.
Terrance Moore (23:51):
And from that point on, to make a long story short, which is all in the book, we had the most unbelievable relationship after that. And some of the moments will shock you when you read Red Brick Magic.
Todd Jones (24:06):
Well, his eyes lit up because Woody coached Miami in 1950, '51 before he went to Ohio State. So, again, he had that tie and that love for that school down there in southwestern Ohio.
Todd Jones (24:17):
And like you said, it led to a working relationship that paid off for you over the next few years. Even to the point where you were able to go to the funeral for Woody Hayes when he died in 1987. And not many people had the access to go to the church and experience that. But you did that and were able to write about it.
Terrance Moore (24:40):
Yeah. And it was only maybe, if I were guessing, there could have been more than, oh geez, maybe a dozen reporters that were allowed there, and they put us up in the balcony.
Terrance Moore (24:48):
I got many interest stories about that particular incident. But what was fascinating about that, Todd, at least one of the fascinating things, unbeknownst to me, and I think to everybody else one of the persons who was doing the eulogy just he was sitting in the front row, and he just started limping up to the podium to give his remarks.
Terrance Moore (25:11):
And all of a sudden it was like we were just looking between ourselves, “That's Richard Nixon.” So, it is like the former president then, who was very close to Woody Hayes, had this relationship that went back to the ‘50s when Richard Nixon was vice president under Dwight Eisenhower. They were very, very close.
Terrance Moore (25:29):
And just to irony, for those who know Richard Nixon's past with Woody Hayes, they had a lot in common in many ways, but one of the most eloquent things I've ever heard in my life. So, there was that.
Terrance Moore (25:42):
But the one thing I pointed out in the book is that Woody Hayes did not like microcassette tape recorders. And Todd, I don't know if you encountered Woody or not, but Woody was at, to say old school is to be an understatement.
Terrance Moore (25:58):
There's a famous story about Woody Hayes in Columbus when a reporter was trying to interview him with a microcassette tape recorder. And Woody Hayes knocked it out of the guy's hands and stuck his finger in his chest and said, "Take notes like a man." So, there's the story.
Todd Jones (26:18):
I don't know what Woody would've thought about podcasting.
Terrance Moore (26:20):
Right, right. But I'm using that to set up the story.
Terrance Moore (26:23):
So, the one stipulation they gave us, the few media people who were at this funeral in upper Arlington, Ohio, which is outside of Columbus. They told us that we could not bring in any electronic devices.
Terrance Moore (26:37):
Well, God forgive me, I snuck in a microcassette tape recorder. I mean, I just had to, there's no doubt. So, I snuck it in and had the recording.
Terrance Moore (26:49):
And so, when the thing is over, I listened to that thing, oh my goodness, maybe hundreds of times. It was so great. The Nixon speech and everything, had all written down.
Todd Jones (26:59):
Wait a minute. You have the Nixon tapes.
Terrance Moore (27:02):
The Nixon tapes. Yeah, the inside.
Todd Jones (27:04):
Just like Watergate.
Terrance Moore (27:06):
And I bought that war in Vietnam. Anyway so, I had the tapes, I listened.
Terrance Moore (27:10):
So, then it was like five or six months after that, at the funeral, I'm thinking to myself, "I got to preserve these tapes because these are so valuable." So, I put them somewhere and you know the rest of the story, I have no idea where that tape ... and I mean, I've done searches. I mean, I can't find it.
Terrance Moore (27:32):
And so, what I think about, which I put in the book, this was Woody Hayes. It was like him saying, "Young man, you broke the rules."
Todd Jones (27:42):
Well, Nixon knew a thing about tapes disappearing and there's an 18-minute gap in Terrance Moore's tape from Woody Hayes's funeral.
Todd Jones (27:49):
Well, there's so many stories about Woody and 28 seasons at Ohio State. He's obviously, iconic legend of college football in the state of Ohio.
Todd Jones (28:00):
But you also got to know another person whose name I believe doesn't get nearly enough attention anymore because he dates back too far. But that's Paul Brown.
Todd Jones (28:11):
Paul Brown basically built the modern NFL with intention. Co-Founded the Cleveland Browns, co-founded the Cincinnati Bengals, on and on and on. And you don't hear his name mentioned a lot. Paul Brown, of course, had ties to Miami.
Terrance Moore (28:29):
Yep.
Todd Jones (28:30):
Did Terrence Moore. And so, when you were working at the Cincinnati Enquirer, that once again, paid off when you went to training camp for the Bengals, where he was at that point, general manager, he had retired from coaching.
Terrance Moore (29:34):
And for people who don't know, those early Bengals were outstanding. They were the best expansive team of all time. Within three years they were the fastest team ever to go to a playoff.
Todd Jones (29:48):
Once again, the genius of Paul Brown. I mean, Paul Brown did that with the Bengals. He had won all those championships, seven different league titles with the Cleveland Browns. He won a national championship as coach at Ohio State. He was a high school legend at Massillon, Ohio.
Todd Jones (30:04):
So, again, he did it at every level. And by the time you meet him, he's an absolute total legend.
Terrance Moore (30:11):
Yeah. And I'm going to continue with the story about — the one thing that Paul Brown does not get enough credit for, if not any credit for that needs to be talked about more.
Terrance Moore (30:22):
Everybody talks about April 15th, 1947. That's when some guy named Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in baseball. And to many people's thinking, the color barrier in sports.
Terrance Moore (30:36):
Wrong, that would be Paul Brown. Paul Brown, a year before that, with the Cleveland Browns, became the first coach to play African American players. Not one, but two.
Todd Jones (30:49):
Two, right. Marion Motley and ... yeah.
Terrance Moore (30:52):
That's exactly right. That's a year before Jackie Robinson.
Terrance Moore (30:55):
So, anyway, that Paul Brown ... 1979, grew up as diehard Bengals fan, and at this point, my second year at the Cincinnati Enquirer. So, I'm sitting up to Wilmington, Ohio, and that's where the Bengals used to train back in those days, a hot day and just steamy. And this is all part of the story, Todd.
Terrance Moore (31:18):
This was back in the days when if you were in training camp, you can do anything shy of take a chainsaw to somebody's legs. We're talking about tour days, three-hour practices, not manicured lawns just hot sunny day. Anyway-
Todd Jones (31:36):
Yeah, there was no load management at the NFL training camps in those days.
Terrance Moore (31:40):
Yeah, none of that. So, I'm just this kid, first NFL training camp. I'm scared to death. And it's my Bengal, everybody. And I'm looking across the field and I see Paul Brown across the way. I mean, the great Paul Brown.
Terrance Moore (31:54):
I mean, and not only is he great because of all the things that we talked about, but he is also, the guy that went to my alma mater, Miami of Ohio. Everybody knows about Paul Brown.
Terrance Moore (32:03):
So, the practice ends, the second of the tour days. Paul Brown is walking toward me, and I'm thinking, "No, this is not happening." So, I'm looking behind me like he's truly looking at somebody behind me, but he's walking straight toward me.
Terrance Moore (32:19):
So, he comes to me, and he says, "Are you the young man that wrote the story today?" And what he is referring to, is I had written this first personal story, George Plimpton style of when I went to Richmond, Indiana to try out for the Reds.
Terrance Moore (32:31):
And I may modestly say that I didn't make the cut. That was pretty, I was pretty good back in the day.
Todd Jones (32:37):
Well, some play and some write about those who do play.
Terrance Moore (32:40):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And it was a front-page story for the Cincinnati Enquirer. And Paul Brown apparently had read this. And I said, “Yes I am.” He says, “I need to see you in my office.”
Todd Jones (32:53):
Oh-oh.
Terrance Moore (32:53):
And there was some other things in between there, but I'm scared to death. I mean, like what in the world?
Terrance Moore (32:58):
And Todd, you know how this is, when somebody says something like that to you as a reporter, people say you're life flashes before your eyes. What you do is everything you've written about that individual flashes before your eyes.
Terrance Moore (33:10):
So, I'm thinking, “I've never written about Paul Brown. What is this?” And I'm thinking about, "Did I write something bad about the Bengals?" I had no idea. So, that's what I'm thinking.
Terrance Moore (33:19):
So, later on, I get to his office, very spartans office, which is so Paul Brown, and for those who are Bengals fans now, I know some of you can attest to this about the Mike Brown, who's Paul Brown's son has got the reputation of not being the biggest spender except for Joe Burrow.
Terrance Moore (33:38):
But anyway so, this was typical Paul Brown, just a very simple office. It was one Wilmington College, one of these dormitories, no frills dormitory type deal.
Terrance Moore (33:52):
So, Paul Brown comes in, he sits behind the desk, and I'm sitting in front of him in like one of these little third grader chairs, and we just had a little chitchat.
Terrance Moore (33:59):
So, finally it gets to the point ... and by the way, I should say, you don't really chitchat with Paul Brown. He wasn't that type of guy.
Todd Jones (34:08):
You do a lot of listening.
Terrance Moore (34:10):
Yes. And he also, believed in getting straight to the point. So, he said, "Listen, I saw what you did with the Reds. I want you to try out as a defensive back for the Bengals and write about it."
Terrance Moore (34:24):
And now, I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night. That's why I set up what I told you before.
Terrance Moore (34:29):
This was a real National Football League. It's not the training camps they have right now, where you don't touch anybody whereas it was flag football. No, no. This was different. And they would've loved nothing better than to have a reporter out there that they could ...
Todd Jones (34:46):
You would've been a pinata.
Terrance Moore (34:47):
Yeah, yeah, right. So, I just said, “Thanks a lot, Mr. Brown, or Coach Brown," or whatever I said at the time. I said, "But I have to politely refuse." He stood up, he looked at me and he had the coldest eyes, and he said, "Think about it," as he walked out of the room. I thought about it alright.
Todd Jones (35:10):
You did think about it, but you didn't do it. But you did develop a good rapport with Paul Brown, and you were able to visit him some other times down at his office at Riverfront Stadium. You mentioned his office at training camp with spartan. What was his office at Riverfront Stadium like?
Terrance Moore (35:26):
Wow. This is one of my favorite parts of the book, is that Paul Brown only really had two visible vices, if you want to call them vices or maybe that's not the right word. Two visible things where he splurged, let's put it that way.
Terrance Moore (35:44):
You went into his office at Riverfront Stadium. And Riverfront Stadium, as a young kid growing up, being a diehard Bengals fan, also a diehard big Red Machine fan, I must add, River Forest Stadium was built in 1970.
Terrance Moore (35:57):
And back then, you just think, "Whoa, a state of the art," whatever. The place was awful. I mean, it was not the best. And not just because they had artificial-
Todd Jones (36:08):
It was like a giant concrete ashtray. All those stadiums in the '70s, right?
Terrance Moore (36:14):
It really was.
Todd Jones (36:14):
Multipurpose cement.
Terrance Moore (36:18):
The only thing that I would say that was always a plus, I was always amazed, Todd, that you can attest to this. It was always spic and span. And that's one thing about Cincinnati. All of its sports arenas have always been that way. I mean, even right now, they're the cleanest facilities I've ever seen.
Terrance Moore (36:35):
So, it was always that, but I'm setting it up to say, to get to Paul Brown's office, you had to know where you're going because Riverfront Stadium was built in the midst of like parking garages. And it was just like a hidden door, like find a secret door and everything.
Terrance Moore (36:50):
And once you got in there, you go into his office, I mean, he had this one window that theoretically overlooked Riverfront Stadium, but it was like the worst view that you could see because he didn't care. I mean, he only cared about the bottom line. And he did the bottom line very well with the Xs and Os.
Terrance Moore (37:08):
But the one thing that was so striking when you walked in there, he had this huge rug (I can't imagine why) of a Bengal tiger. And the rug had an actual Bengal tiger head on it.
Todd Jones (37:24):
Oh, come on.
Terrance Moore (37:26):
It was. And it was like one of these things that scared the hell out of this. And I remember, and everybody would just talk about it.
Terrance Moore (37:32):
And to this day, I've asked around people like, "What happened to Paul Brown's rug?" Nobody can tell me. I suspect Mike Brown got it somewhere, but I would assume. But I mean, it was just so striking.
Terrance Moore (37:43):
And the only other thing that he had that he splurged on that was so obvious, he had this love for this Cadillac. He had this old Cadillac that he just revered.
Todd Jones (37:56):
Did you ever get to ride in it?
Terrance Moore (37:59):
I didn't. I wish I could have. But I mean, it just like what that song, Pink Cadillac. I mean, whatever it is. The song in my head.
Terrance Moore (38:07):
But anyway, those little moments like that, I got them throughout the book about this, tells you about different aspects of the personalities of these guys that perhaps you may not be aware of, or you'd just be shocked if you knew.
Todd Jones (38:41):
And when you think about Paul Brown, he had all that success as a coach. Then as a general manager, he led the Bengals to two Super Bowls, the final one prior to his death in 1991, a few years before that. He lost those Super Bowls to the San Francisco 49ers.
Todd Jones (38:58):
And the intrigue of that is the 49ers coach was Bill Walsh, who used to be an assistant coach for Paul Brown with Cincinnati in the early '70s. And then obviously the man we mentioned, John McVay. Mcvay was the general manager of those 49ers. Mcvay had played for Paul Brown.
Terrance Moore (39:21):
Exactly.
Todd Jones (39:23):
And McVay was from northeast Ohio where the 49ers owner Eddie DeBartolo was from. So, you have all this intrigue of this Ohio subplots going on between those Bengals and 49ers teams back in the '80s.
Todd Jones (39:36):
And as you pointed out the 9ers success was really Walsh gets a lot of credit, and rightfully so as a coach, but John McVay was in the background building that thing. Tell us a little more about John McVay.
Terrance Moore (39:52):
Well, I'm biased on this because I'm a huge, or was a huge John McVay fan. Unfortunately, John McVay passed away last year. But John McVay, I contend that John McVay is the most underrated, greatest figure in the history of the National Football League. And I mean that sincerely. He does not get enough credit.
Terrance Moore (40:14):
And part of the reason he doesn't get enough credit, the fault goes to John McVay, because-
Todd Jones (40:22):
Why you say that? Why is that?
Terrance Moore (40:24):
Because not only was he everything I just said, Todd, he was also ... and I got to think about this before I say it. And I think I can rightfully say he was either one A or one B, the most modest, greatest sports figure I ever met.
Terrance Moore (40:44):
A lot of times you hear about people say, "Well, they don't want the credit. They wanted others to get the credit. They wanted to deflect the credit, they wanted to whatever."
Terrance Moore (40:53):
And a lot of that as you know, Todd, is media talk. Deep down the side, it's like, "Hey, give me the credit. Look at me, look at me, look at me."
Terrance Moore (41:03):
John McVay sincerely did not want the credit. He wanted everything deflected from him to Bill Walsh, who gladly would take the credit because Bill Walsh was an egomaniac, to Eddie DeBartolo, who was also an egomaniac.
Todd Jones (41:19):
So, in many ways, and matter of fact Bill Walsh writes about this in his book, The Winning Edge. Bill Walsh admits in this book that the only way that Dynasty could have lasted was because of John McVay because John McVay was willing to sacrifice his ego for everybody else. He didn't say-
Todd Jones (41:42):
You don't have that much anymore in sports.
Terrance Moore (41:44):
Right, right. But he was the man. And the way he was a man, again, that 49ers dynasty, which to me is the greatest dynasty of all time in the NFL. And people say, "Well, what about the Cowboys? What about the Green Bay Packers? And what about the Patriot?"
Terrance Moore (41:59):
Well, here's why it's the greatest. It lasted for 20 years. And again, not burying the lead, this is John McVay was his fingerprints all the way through it. It lasted for 20 years.
Terrance Moore (42:08):
During that 20-year stretch, that was during a stretch when the National Football League switched systems from going from pre free agency and salary cap to free agency and salary cap.
Terrance Moore (42:23):
I missed that because the 9ers won two of their Super Bowls in the old system. They won three of their Super Bowls, their five Super Bowls in the new system. Who's there? John McVay.
Todd Jones (42:37):
Yeah. He was the common denominator. Right?
Terrance Moore (42:39):
Right. 20 years, they have Joe Montana as a Hall of Fame quarterback. Who's responsible for him? John McVay. People will say, "Well, Bill Walsh." Yeah, but I'm telling you not to get into the details. John McVay had a lot to do with Joe Montana. John McVay had a lot to do with Steve Young coming from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers to the 49ers.
Todd Jones (43:04):
Hold on a second, Terrance. Why do you say that? Not to get into details, but why do you think McVay, as much as anyone had such an impact on two of the greatest quarterbacks ever, Montana and Young?
Terrance Moore (43:16):
John McVay was a very astute football mind. He was a scout. I mean, he knew talent. I mean, he was very good at talent. And Bill Walsh told me that many times before that he had never met anybody who knew talent more than John McVay.
Terrance Moore (43:32):
John McVay, (I'm going to exaggerate the point to make a point) he was very much like Paul Brown. Paul Brown was like this too.
Terrance Moore (43:38):
They could watch a guy for 10 minutes and know everything they needed to know about him, whether or not they could play or whatever, and then project to how that person is going to fit into their system, not only in the coming weeks and months or years, but down the road.
Terrance Moore (43:55):
John McVay was constantly a multidimensional thinker. He was all of that. So, he was able to see what a Steve Young could do and project at the same time. Now, remember now, they got Steve Young, when they still had Joe Montana.
Todd Jones (44:11):
Right, right.
Terrance Moore (44:12):
So, he's projecting, "Okay, well, at some point, Joe Montana, blah, blah, blah, Steve Young ..." And it worked. So, he was a constant denominator through all of those different changes. So, for 20 years, he is a guy that was always there no matter what.
Terrance Moore (44:27):
And think about it, three different head coaches. Bill Walsh, Hall of Famer, George Seaford, may not be a Hall of Famer, but certainly a perennial coach of the year guy, Steve Mariucci takes it to the player. Three different, but the same general manager.
Terrance Moore (44:42):
So, that's why I say that he was such an underrated guy and the key to that entire run.
Todd Jones (44:48):
Do you have a personal memory of an experience with McVay yourself, you and him, that you treasure to this day?
Terrance Moore (44:58):
Yeah, there's so many, but if I had to pick one and this ties very deeply into the Miami thing.
Terrance Moore (45:43):
But to get to your point, this is in 2010 and it was right before the Super Bowl, which was out in San Francisco at the time, and I got a chance to huddle with John McVay out there just talking about the Super Bowl coming up. And his young grandson, some guy named Sean McVay, you may have heard of him. We talk about all these things-
Todd Jones (46:08):
Who, by the way, also beat the Cincinnati Bengals in the Super Bowl.
Terrance Moore (46:11):
Exactly. Exactly.
Todd Jones (46:14):
I don't think Mike Brown in the Brown family want to hear anymore about the McVays.
Terrance Moore (46:18):
No, no, not at all.
Terrance Moore (46:20):
And he's sitting there and then he just starts talking about emotionally (and this is all in the book) about his time at Miami.
Terrance Moore (46:29):
And he is reminiscing about all these guys. Carmen Cozza, who went on to be a great coach at Yale, and the winningest coach in the history of the Ivy League when he retired. Bo Schembechler, Ara Parseghian. Oh, how he loved Ara Parseghian. John McVay.
Terrance Moore (46:45):
And he's just getting misty-eyed and teary-eyed. And he gave me this great line. He says, "We were just having so much fun. We never wanted to leave, but we had to leave, but we didn't want to leave."
Terrance Moore (46:58):
And I loved that because I could relate to that, and I loved it in the sense, here's this man, this grown man what, 50, 60 years later, and he still has this great emotion for his alma mater.
That has worked to my favor through the years because I go back again, I can't tell you that Miami connection has opened so many doors for me because of that emotional feeling people have toward Miami.
Todd Jones (48:11):
You mentioned Ara Parseghian and McVay played at Miami with Ara, right? I believe they're on the same team.
Terrance Moore (48:19):
Yes. Yeah.
Todd Jones (48:20):
And Ara had played for Paul Brown.
Terrance Moore (48:23):
Right.
Todd Jones (48:23):
Think about this. I mean, again, all the ties there. And then Ara goes on to become this great coach. He coached Miami as an assistant for Woody Hayes. And then he became Northwestern's coach. And then he went on to legendary status at Notre Dame.
Todd Jones (48:38):
1964 to 1974, won two national championships, one of the all-time coaching legends at Notre Dame.
Todd Jones (48:46):
Also, you were growing up in South Bend at that time. Right? So, you have much more than just a tie with Parseghian with Miami.
Todd Jones (51:53):
Okay. So, then you become an adult and a journalist and you cross paths professionally with this guy that you grew up with at a distance, kind of worshiping as the guy.
Todd Jones (52:07):
But then starting in the late '70s and moving forward through your career at Cincinnati and San Francisco and Atlanta, you developed a rapport with this guy.
Todd Jones (52:16):
Tell us a little bit about how your relationship developed over the years, your professional relationship with Ara, and how that paid off in terms of journalism.
the first time I met Ara was at a Notre Dame Navy game, 1979. This is the first time I've ever covered a Notre Dame game in South Bend. Again, I'm scared to death.
Todd Jones (54:22):
And he was working television at the time.
Terrance Moore (54:24):
Yeah, yeah. And I went up to him and I told him I grew up in South Bend. This is Terry Moore. And he could tell I was nervous, but he made me feel that ease right off the bat. And then I said the magic word again. "I graduated from Miami of Ohio." Oh my goodness. I had him right there.
Terrance Moore (54:42):
And it just went from there where whenever I was in South Bend, or many times I was in South Bend, I would huddle with him over something. The time to come to Miami and I was there, and he was at Miami quite a bit because it was also on the board of trustees at Miami University.
Terrance Moore (54:57):
And we developed basically a friendship. A very, very strong friendship to the point, (which is in the book) Ara told me things that he had never told anybody before.
Terrance Moore (55:11):
And among the biggies, which is in the book, is why he really retired at that young age as you say, of 51. And the story is fascinating. It's kind of a two-part story there. And some of the other interesting things he told me about his stay at Notre Dame.
Todd Jones (55:26):
Okay, well, let's hear why Ara retired, because again, it was shocking at age 51, he was at the top of his game. Notre Dame was national champions. Why would Ara want to walk away from that at age 51?
Terrance Moore (55:41):
It was a two-part thing here, and you can read the details in the book, but I'm going to give you the cliff note version. The first part of it is, you have to understand, in 1973, he won the second of his two national championships, won the other one in 1966, and actually should have won four. But that's whole another story.
Terrance Moore (55:58):
So, 1973, they won the national championship. At the end of that season, handful of his defensive players, might have been some offensive players in there, but I'll just say a handful of his players, five or six of his players were accused of rape.
Sexual assault. It was something along those lines. And it got some publicity. Yeah, I'd say pretty significant because anything at time that Notre Dame does anything that's considered bad, people want to jump on Notre Dame because it was supposed to be holier than thou.
Terrance Moore (56:43):
So, the legendary Father Hesburgh, who I knew very well, he was the president at the time basically called Ara to his office (and Father Joyce was another legendary priest at the time) and just said that, “We want you to make the announcement to the public that these players will be suspended for the 1974 season.”
Terrance Moore (57:10):
Okay, now, two things here. Ara didn't think that the players got a fair shake because there was some extenuating circumstances involved that Ara told me about, which I don't share in the book, by the way.
Terrance Moore (57:22):
And then the other thing was Ara didn't feel that it was his place to make this announcement. I mean, as much as he revered Father Hesburgh and Father Joyce, he thought that was more of an administrative type of thing, but Ara did it anyway.
Terrance Moore (57:40):
And as I point out in the book, after Ara made the announcement that these pretty prominent players, I mean, were suspended for the 74 season. He told me that after the press conference at Notre Dame, he drove home and got in his driveway, and he was so emotionally exhausted, he almost could not get out of the car.
Terrance Moore (58:00):
And that's when he started thinking to himself, "This is beginning to be too much." He also had these physical elements, but that was part one.
Terrance Moore (58:10):
Part two, which I put out in the book. The season takes place, 1974, and everybody thinks that what pushed Aro over the edge was the last game of that regular season.
Terrance Moore (58:32):
1974, they won the National championship in '73. Notre Dame still has a chance to win back to back National Championships. They're playing Southern Cal at the end of the season.
Terrance Moore (58:42):
And right before halftime, Notre Dame takes a 24 to nothing lead. And then some guy named Anthony Davis returns the opening kickoff right before he hit intermission. And it's 24 to 7. But you know what, we got this. Except final score, Notre Dame, 24, Southern Cal 55.
Todd Jones (59:04):
About 55 in a row by the Trojans.
Terrance Moore (59:07):
Exactly. The worst beating in the history of Notre Dame football. Period. And there's some stories behind that. I'm saying that for another book.
Terrance Moore (59:15):
So, the off season takes place. You get to near the end of the season, Aro announces the retirement. So, everybody says, "Aha. The reason Ara is retiring is because of 55, 24 Southern Cal, too emotional." No, they would be wrong.
Todd Jones (59:34):
Because he told you much later when you were a columnist in Atlanta, because of this relationship you had developed with him, he confided in you much later the real reasons why he retired. So, give us that.
Terrance Moore (59:47):
Yes. And, Todd, I can see why you have such a great podcast, because you are so good at setting up your guests. I love that. Okay, I'll throw you a high five. Yes.
Terrance Moore (59:59):
And he told me, he said it wasn't that game. He said it was a game earlier in the year when (wait for it) Notre Dame was playing Navy. Yes, Navy.
Terrance Moore (01:00:12):
We're talking about the same Navy that Notre Dame had beaten every year since 1963 when a guy named Roger Staubach beat them. Up to that point, Notre Dame had not only beaten Navy every year, but crushed them.
Terrance Moore (01:00:26):
So, this particular Navy game took place in Philadelphia, and it was a particularly grueling game for Notre Dame. Even though they won the game. But it wasn't by Notre Dame standards or Ara standards.
Todd Jones (01:00:41):
Wasn't enough for the Notre Dame fans.
Terrance Moore (01:00:43):
Yes. And it wasn't enough for Ara. So, Ara says the game is over and he was just totally exhausted there in Philadelphia. And he said that he became even more exhausted when he was walking back to the team bus.
Terrance Moore (01:00:56):
And he says he gets on the bus. This is a Navy outside of the old stadium, and they played there, it might have been Veteran Stadium-
Todd Jones (01:01:03):
Franklin Field, maybe. Yeah.
Terrance Moore (01:01:04):
Yeah, probably Franklin Field. And he said he gets on the bus and he says out of nowhere, a couple of students, I don't know if they were Notre Dame students or Navy students, jump on the bus and they're all liquored up. And he says one of them comes over and just gives him a kiss right on the lips.
Terrance Moore (01:01:26):
So, he says they're flying back to South Bend, he's thinking about the kiss, he's thinking about the Navy game, he's thinking about the suspended players. And thinking about how remarkable this is, in spite of those suspended players, I mean, they were still having this great season. Think about all that.
Terrance Moore (01:01:50):
And then he said he got home, he opened the door to his house, and he said that his wife was in the hallway, he said he had his bags, he just slung his bags on the floor of the hallway. And he just told his wife with slumped shoulders, "I'm out of here." That's when he first said, "I'm gone." And never changed his mind from that moment on.
Terrance Moore (01:02:14):
He didn't tell anybody. He kept it to himself until near the end of the season when he told Father Hesburgh and Father Joyce.
Terrance Moore (01:02:22):
And here's the rest of the story. This is also good too. They were going to make it very dramatic like the Gipper, Notre Dame dramatic, that sort of thing.
Terrance Moore (01:02:31):
So, what they originally wanted to do when he told Father Joyce and Father Hesburgh near the end of that season, even before the Southern Cal game, that it was going to retire at the end of the season, they were going to save it to right before the Bowl game.
Terrance Moore (01:02:45):
They didn't know at the time they were going to play Alabama. But think of how dramatic that would've been, Todd, if like right before the Bowl game Ara announced, "I'm out of here." They would've done something like upset Alabama, which they ended up doing anyway.
Terrance Moore (01:02:58):
But the story leaked because his replacement was a guy named Dan Devine. And Dan Devine had been the first choice for Notre Dame before Ara Parseghian back in '64, if you believe that or not. And Dan Devine at this time was the coach of the Green Bay Packers.
Terrance Moore (01:03:17):
So, Notre Dame always wanting to be ahead of the curve, even now, when it comes to coaching hires. Notre Dame had already talked to Dan Devine and told him, "Hey, look, Ara's going to retire at the end of the season. Would you want to be the coach again?" Dan Devine stood with the Packers and he agreed. So, it was all set.
Terrance Moore (01:03:34):
And they wanted not to tell anybody, wanted everybody to stay quiet till at the end of the season, except Dan Devine ran his mouth off to a columnist (can you believe that) in Minneapolis. And there's a great - you probably know the name, it's Sid-
Todd Jones (01:03:51):
Sid Hartman.
Terrance Moore (01:03:53):
The great Sid Hartman. Sid Hartman being like, you know how we can be, Todd, we can't hold a secret, spilled the beans and it was out there.
Todd Jones (01:04:02):
So, that changed Notre Dame history right there.
Terrance Moore (01:04:04):
It exactly did.
Todd Jones (01:04:05):
Well, I think the fact that Ara Parseghian trusted you enough years later after getting to know you, to tell you some of the details he never really had shared before about his retirement, which was so shocking in 1974, the end of that year.
Todd Jones (01:04:22):
I think that just shows you the trust and the relationship that you were able to develop with so many of these big-name coaches and athletes because of dating back to those ties at Miami.
Todd Jones (01:04:34):
And I think that comes across in your book, Red Brick Magic. And I recommend that people check it out. It's really a great read because there's so many great stories about famous names who all have this thing in common, and Terrance Moore is the guy to write it because he has it in common with them.
Todd Jones (01:04:49):
And you did that throughout your career. Great career. I also recommend The Real Hank Aaron: An Intimate Look at the Life and Legacy of the Home Run King. In our previous episode, which you should check out, Terrance had some great stories about Hank Aaron.
Todd Jones (01:05:03):
And I've really enjoyed just catching up with you again, Terrance. Wish you the best of luck with your future books. I know you're never going to be done. You're still writing. And thank you so much for joining us again on Press Box Access.
Terrance Moore (01:05:18):
Yeah. And I'm going to leave with a quick tease for you, Todd. I'm in the process of writing book number three.
Todd Jones (01:05:25):
Oh, okay.
Terrance Moore (01:05:26):
And it's going to be a-
Todd Jones (01:05:28):
Breaking news here.
Terrance Moore (01:05:30):
That's right. You're the first to hear this. It's going to be a head turner. I can't give you any more than that, but I'll be on your podcast to talk about that one too.
Todd Jones (01:05:38):
Well, I'll be glad to have you.
-end-
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